Tom Kelly: [00:00:00] Welcome back, everyone, to Last Chair the Ski Utah podcast. It is a beautiful October day here in Utah. The leaves are past their peak. Now they're starting to fall. As skiers and snowboarders, we love this time of year because we're just counting it down until the lifts start running in November. So we are going to talk ski lifts today and we have the resident expert, Peter Landsman. Appreciate you coming by here. Peter from liftblog is really the nations' and the continents' voice on ski lifts. Peter, thanks for coming in and visiting with us at the Ski Utah office.

Peter Landsman: [00:00:34] Thanks for having me, Tom.

Tom Kelly: [00:00:35] Now you have probably become one of the most frequent transitters of the Salt Lake City International Airport. I know you're on transit today between your home in Jackson, Wyoming and Montreal, Quebec, to look at some more ski lifts, right?

Peter Landsman: [00:00:51] That's right. I've finished visiting the lifts in the United States, and now I'm working on Canada. So pretty much regardless of where I'm going, Salt Lake is the first stop and the last stop.

Tom Kelly: [00:01:02] We're going to talk more about your accomplishment. But folks, if you're just tuning in to Peter and the liftblog, Peter in his career has now visited every single ski lift in America -- 2,381 by count. We're going to come back to that a little bit. But for those who have been following you, maybe don't know your background, how did you get into the sport of skiing originally?

Peter Landsman: [00:01:23] Well, like a lot of people, it was initially my dad, my parents, I grew up in the Seattle area, started skiing at Snoqualmie Pass, which is about 45 minutes outside of Seattle. And immediately I loved to ski. I think I was about four years old when I first started. And also very quickly with the skiing, I realized the lifts were also really interesting machines. And I would say ever since then I've had an interest in both the skiing and the lifts and tried to get to as many ski areas and lifts as I can.

Tom Kelly: [00:01:59] How old were you when you first began that infatuation with these lift devices to take us uphill?

Peter Landsman: [00:02:05] I would say when I started skiing when I was four. One of the earlier memories I have of a ski trip was to Sun Valley. And I remember being just like five or six and asking if I could my parents, if I could stay late and watch them turn off the ski lift and like, somehow that would be interesting. And I don't know if my parents were. They probably thought it was kind of a funny thing to ask, but they let me stay and watch and I ended up talking to the lift operators and I still do that kind of thing today.

Tom Kelly: [00:02:39] How did you find your ... I mean, you work at Jackson Hole now in our neighboring state of Wyoming, here from Utah. How did you end up working in lift engineering?

Peter Landsman: [00:02:49] So I went to college in Maine. And so I visited a bunch of resorts and lifts in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I knew all along that I wanted to return to the West after college and work in the ski industry. So I told my parents I was just going to go for a winter to a ski resort and work as a lift operator. And. 11 years later, I'm still there.

Tom Kelly: [00:03:17] Was Jackson your first stop?

Peter Landsman: [00:03:19] Jackson was my first choice. I graduated from college, spent the summer back home, and then in the fall, I went to Jackson, interviewed for a job and got the job. And I've been there since I had some other ski resorts on my list. Some of them are in Utah, but got a job at the first one I went to.

Tom Kelly: [00:03:37] So And what's your role up there now?

Peter Landsman: [00:03:40] I'm a lift supervisor, so I basically hire, train and supervise lift operators. So we have about 150 employees in the winter and then about 50 in the summertime. And so it's always busy whether we're hiring season or operating season. We always have things going on with lifts.

Tom Kelly: [00:04:02] You know, for those of us who are skiers and snowboarders, we love to ride your lifts. You are one of those somewhat invisible employees out there on the mountain that play a really vital role. What are some of the things in your typical day that you would do as a lift supervisor?

Peter Landsman: [00:04:17] Well, we get to the mountain very early in the dark. There's basically an army of people that work at ski resorts that are sort of behind the scenes. We work very closely with lift maintenance, ski patrol. They're just so many different people. Are at ski resorts early in the morning getting the mountain ready to go. We figure out with patrol when they need to go up certain lifts where they need to go. We communicate with maintenance, figure out what lifts are ready, what lifts maybe are going to take more time to get ready. And then all of that happens before the guests even get in line for the day.

Tom Kelly: [00:04:59] A lot of us probably think that you arrive on site, you flip a switch and the lifts start running. But it's probably not that simple, is it?

Peter Landsman: [00:05:07] It's not that simple. And in my role in particular, I'm dealing a lot with the employee side, so not necessarily the guest facing part of the ski resort, but figuring out which employees are going where, who's best suited to go, to which lift that day, and making sure everybody is in place by the time patrol needs to go up. And then the guests need to go up the mountain for the day.

Tom Kelly: [00:05:33] What are some of the biggest challenges that you face? Is it that really nasty big blasting powder day or is it ice or what are some of the things that really create headaches for you?

Peter Landsman: [00:05:46] Uh, well, transportation is a big one. Roads, We rely a lot in Jackson, and I know a lot of the mountains do here, too. On particular roads to ski resorts and public transportation. A lot of our employees take public transportation to work. So we tend to know when the bus, maybe or bus gets stuck or a bus is late and. A lot of that's tied to weather. So on a big weather day, we try and encourage employees to get to the mountain as early as possible, take the earliest bus they can because everyone's relying on us to get to the mountain and get the lifts going so that everything else can happen and we can open for the day.

Tom Kelly: [00:06:31] What are some of the real upsides to the job? And I know one, I'm going to let you go first, but there's one that I know that's important to me. But if you look at your job right now, what's kind of the thing that really gets you motivated every day?

Peter Landsman: [00:06:42] There's an incredible camaraderie working at a ski resort. There are so many different people working together from different departments. Every department at a ski resort is important. Everybody rides lifts. So we're all kind of in it together. And we work really hard every day, every morning to make sure that we open the lifts on time and the guests have a great experience. So it's extremely rewarding.

Tom Kelly: [00:07:12] Yeah, I love the team concept. Where I was going to go on it, though, is having worked for the US Ski Team for a lot of years or many mornings where I was able to go up before the public and get up on top of a mountain. And I know that for you that also has to be a pretty memorable part of your job to be up on top of a mountain when the sun is just coming over that ridge out to the east.

Peter Landsman: [00:07:32] Absolutely. The sunrises, the fresh snow, the fresh grooming that we get to enjoy the sun sets at the end of the day. When you're in mountain operations, you're there before the mountain opens and after the mountain closes. And it's great when the guests are on the mountain. But it's also really amazing when you just have the mountain to yourselves and your coworkers.

Tom Kelly: [00:07:55] Are there times in those early morning hours on a powder day where maybe you can sneak a little run of fresh before you head back to your next stop on your job day?

Peter Landsman: [00:08:05] Absolutely. It's definitely part of the job getting to ski fresh powder, and we make sure we arrange things so that sometimes the fresh powder is on the way to the next task.

Tom Kelly: [00:08:18] That's one of the perks of working at a ski area. Folks, if you're out there listening to the podcast and looking for a job for this winter, this might be a good opportunity for you at one of Utah's resorts. Let's get into the crazy quest that you undertook. And I know that you began this infatuation when you were maybe four or five years old, but at what point did it strike you that you wanted to go and see or experience in some way every lift in America?

Peter Landsman: [00:08:47] Well, I think it shows the power of dividing tasks into chunks and taking things one step at a time. I really didn't think I would get to everyone until pretty late on in the quest. I just looked at it in chunks. And so I started in Washington where I grew up. I was like, I can visit every skier in Washington. And then when I went to college, I made an effort to visit every skier in Maine. And as I went, I just took it, broke it down into chunks. The West, I did Utah, I did Colorado. And then and then fairly late in the process, I was like, well, there's only so many states with ski areas and there are only so many skiers, and maybe I really can do all of them.

Tom Kelly: [00:09:33] And you did.

Peter Landsman: [00:09:34] Eventually. Yeah, it took a lot of time.

Tom Kelly: [00:09:37] Now, during that time, you're still working and you still are working a full time job. How do you parse out the time to do that?

Peter Landsman: [00:09:45] So we work very long days in the ski industry. Where I work, Jackson Hole, we tend to work for day workweeks in mountain operations and sometimes even three and a half if we work really long days. So as an hourly employee, I could kind of do some trading with other coworkers who really help me out. And then I could take maybe four or five days during the winter to do a trip to, say, Utah and cross off a bunch of resorts. I did very often do multiple resorts in one day, and I also didn't do them all in the winter. So some of the resorts, like in the Midwest that are pretty small, I could just visit in the summertime and hike up and and check out every lift without having to actually ride them.

Tom Kelly: [00:10:36] At what point in this process did you start your blog, liftblog?

Peter Landsman: [00:10:41] That was later. So I would say about halfway through. Initially, when I started working at Jackson Hole, I was a seasonal employee, and so I would have the off seasons off. So one April, after we'd closed for the season, I think it was 2015. I was just kind of sitting around doing some hiking and biking and waiting for the next season to start and had some time off. And I figured maybe, you know, I visited all these lifts. I've taken pictures of all these lifts. You mentioned the statistics about all these lists and figured maybe somebody else might be interested in reading about them if I put all this information online.

Tom Kelly: [00:11:20] When you started liftblog and you also have an accompanying Instagram channel, you're active on Twitter. Are you active on Facebook as well?

Peter Landsman: [00:11:29] Facebook, a little less, but I have accounts on all three.

Tom Kelly: [00:11:31] But Instagram is a great spot. If people want to go and learned a little bit more about what you've experienced, they can just go to your liftblog handle on Instagram, right?

Peter Landsman: [00:11:39] Yeah. And I've learned through this. Ski lifts tend not to be an ugly places, so I've taken a lot of nice photos of ski lifts because they tend to be all in amazing places.

Tom Kelly: [00:11:49] Well, they really really are. But at what point in this process were you able to walk into a ski area office and say, Hey, I'm Peter Landsman from liftblog, I'm here to look at your lifts, and they actually paid attention to you.

Peter Landsman: [00:12:03] More recently. I would say I had a following pretty quickly, but it was in a narrow group of people that were also interested in lifts. I would say in the last couple of years after visiting all of the ski areas people have. Realized what I've done and gotten to know my name and. And. Now, I would say most ski operators, people who work in mountain operations, have at least heard of my website and quest to visit all these lifts.

Tom Kelly: [00:12:36] In the beginning, was it. Was it mainly people directly involved in the lift industry who were interested in your blog?

Peter Landsman: [00:12:44] Exactly. So it was more like the mountain operations folks. Maybe a lift operations manager or a lift mechanic would follow liftblog on social media. And now it's more of a broad section of skiers and snowboarders and marketing folks and people who just are interested in the ski industry.

Tom Kelly: [00:13:03] I want to get back to your actual journey here in a bit, but I want to digress a bit. And one of the things, too, that I've noticed that you've created is you've also started a real consumer following. And there's two of you out there. You're doing Lift Blog and Stuart Winchester doing his storm skiing journal and podcast. The two of you coming from different directions have what inherently one might look at as really a trade or industry approach to how you're reporting on the sport, But you've both captured this huge consumer following. Did you ever think that you'd get to the point that average skiers and riders were following you to learn more about the inside operation of their sport?

Peter Landsman: [00:13:49] I really didn't. I thought initially I would just get the people who are kind of chairlift nerds, which is a pretty small group of people.

Tom Kelly: [00:13:58] But there are some.

Peter Landsman: [00:13:59] There are definitely some which surprised me in a way as well. But I think what I've realized through this journey is that skiers and snowboarders are very passionate about the sport, even skiers and snowboarders who don't work in the ski industry when they're at their office job or their doctor or wherever they are. They're following what's going on in skiing. They're interested in skiing, they're interested in what's going on at their resort and the resorts they like to visit. And I think both Stewart and I have tapped into that and. I think it's going to continue. People are people who are very passionate about skiing.

Tom Kelly: [00:14:39] Have you changed your editorial content a little bit or are you trying to be a little bit more consumer facing?

Peter Landsman: [00:14:45] Yeah, And I initially started following more of like the past season, past landscape and trying to write more about other projects at ski resorts like snowmaking and lodges and and new expansions, not just lifts, but as you mentioned with Stuart and a lot of other people that are doing a really good job covering the ski industry and what's going on. So I'm just one of many. And I think the more the merrier. The ski industry is an exciting thing to cover. And I really enjoy it.

Tom Kelly: [00:15:21] Let's get back to your adventure. Over about a 22 year span. You went and visited 2,381 lifts. That number is growing at around 480 resorts in the U.S. You've got to have some stories.

Peter Landsman: [00:15:37] Yeah. I mean, the ski industry is incredibly broad. I mean, I have been to ski resorts, that ski resort that's inside. There are ski resorts that are run by schools. There are ski resorts that are run by the US military. There are ski resorts that are run by nonprofits and companies. So they come in all shapes and sizes. And it's really remarkable how. How many different types of lifts and ski resorts I've been to.

Tom Kelly: [00:16:10] I'm always fascinated with those stories of the kind of the family that has the lift in the backyard or the community that's decided to put a lift in and operates it as a community program for kids. Do you have any examples around the country you could give of these just really teeny tiny installations that you probably never have heard of before? And they're certainly not part of an Epic or Icon?

Peter Landsman: [00:16:33] Yeah, one in Vermont comes to mind. There's one called Ascutney that used to be actually a larger resort on Mount Ascutney, and unfortunately, it had some financial problems and the lifts actually got removed and sent to other ski resorts. But the community came together a couple of years ago and decided they still wanted to have a ski hill. So they really bootstrapped it and they built a rope tow and a used bar on the lower part of the mountain. And it's a non-profit community ski hill operated only on weekends. And when there's fresh snow.

Tom Kelly: [00:17:10] Yeah, it's just fascinating to hear these stories. And we don't really have quite as many examples of that here in Utah. But scattered around the country, there are really some amazing, amazing places. I know you've done some of these visits in the summer and some in the wintertime, but typically when you go in the winter, do you just go to a ski? Do you come into a ski area with an advanced plan, like here's going to be my flow around the mountain today?

Peter Landsman: [00:17:37] I do. I study the map. Usually I have an idea in my head of what the skier is like just from my prior research. But the night before, I reviewed the map, figure out what I think is going to be the most efficient and fastest way to go up and down every lift. It really varies on the resort, how many runs you have to do for each lift to really photograph them properly and ride them and then get between the different lifts. Some mountains are much more spread out than others, where you have to ride lifts just to get to other lifts. And some mountains are like three lifts that start in the same spot and you just ride 1 to 3 and then it's done. So every mountain is different, every lift is different, and it takes a little bit of a different plan each time.

Tom Kelly: [00:18:22] I know you stay on top of this, but does it frustrate you a bit when you've been to a ski area the year before and then all of a sudden they start to put in new lifts and replace things and say, Oh, I've got to go back?

Peter Landsman: [00:18:33] It doesn't frustrate me at all. That makes me very happy to hear. Every time a ski area announces a new lift, I get excited to hear what they're doing and where it's going and maybe how it's changing from the old lift. And I keep a constant list going off of where I've been and where I need to to go back to to ride something new.

Tom Kelly: [00:18:51] Do you have a pipeline to the lift manufacturers? I know there aren't that many of them, but do you have an inside connection so you get a sense of what lifts are coming online over the next couple of years?

Peter Landsman: [00:19:02] I do have a good sense of what lifts are coming online. It actually mostly comes from the US Forest Service in Utah and a lot of other places. Many resorts are on public lands, so they have to go through a permit process through the Forest Service before they can even build the lift. And then a lot of times resorts will tell me that they have an announcement coming up and keep me in the loop. The lift companies, sometimes they can say something, but a lot of times it's their customers project, so they're there. They're sometimes tied in what they can say about an upcoming project. But skier ski areas like to talk about what they're planning. And I keep a constant list going on my website of what's planned for each season in the coming seasons ahead.

Tom Kelly: [00:19:56] What are some of the more unusual lifts that you've seen out there as you toured across America?

Peter Landsman: [00:20:02] Oh, there. As I said, everyone is different. But one that comes to mind is in New Jersey, an actual lift that was built here in Salt Lake City but sent over to New Jersey. It's inside this new indoor ski resort in a shopping mall in New Jersey. It's called Big Snow. And so they have a quad chairlift that's actually instead of coming out of the ground and the ski slope, it actually hangs from the ceiling. So as you ride up, the lift towers are coming down from the roof. And that's a pretty unique lift. And then another one that comes to mind is a single chair up in Alaska. Cordova, Alaska, has a single chairlift still operating. It's actually from Sun Valley that got sent up there after they were done with it in Idaho.

Tom Kelly: [00:20:51] Do you have any idea how far back that one went at Sun Valley?

Peter Landsman: [00:20:55] The 1930s.

Tom Kelly: [00:20:56] All the way. One of the originals.

Peter Landsman: [00:20:58] One of the originals. I'm not sure if it's the original one. There were a couple built in pretty short succession in Sun Valley, but it's one of the original lifts from Sun Valley still operating at a ski area in the United States, which is pretty remarkable.

Tom Kelly: [00:21:12] This is a little bit off track, but I wonder, do you have any sense of why people today are willing to spend so much money to buy old used chairlifts to put to ... I don't know, hang in their office or their backyard?

Peter Landsman: [00:21:25] As we just said a few minutes ago, skiers are incredibly passionate about skiing and having a physical piece of memorabilia to put in your house or in your yard from your favorite ski area is pretty appealing. And I actually have one myself. I have a chairlift from Mount Baker, Washington, right now. It's in my mom's garage in Seattle because I don't have a very big apartment in Jackson. But someday when I have a place for it, I will display it prominently in my house.

Tom Kelly: [00:21:58] It's incredible to me to see some of these auctions and sales of old chairlifts. And it is pretty cool. You know, there's just something about when you see a chairlift hanging in a bar, you just wonder about all the stories that go with that chair.

Peter Landsman: [00:22:11] Well, I give credit to Mount Baker Washington. When I bought my chair, it was $35. So I think that's a pretty good investment.

Tom Kelly: [00:22:18] As a pretty good investment, you would not get a chairlift for that amount today. Let's kind of broaden things out. I mean, one of the things that's always fascinated me and having traveled particularly to Europe and seen how lifts are certainly great for ski areas, but they serve other purposes. They're great for mountain transportation, urban transportation networks. Can you give us some examples of other lift installations that you've seen where maybe skiing and snowboarding wasn't the primary purpose?

Peter Landsman: [00:22:46] Yeah. So almost every state in the United States has at least one lift that's at a place other than a ski resort. So in Utah, there's actually a chairlift at Lagoon that's just a sightseeing kind of ride. And then you have places where lifts are used for public transportation. So like in Portland, Oregon, there's an aerial tramway that connects the office area to a hospital up on a hill. And it goes over I-5 -- Interstate five.

Tom Kelly: [00:23:14] And it's a chairlift.

Peter Landsman: [00:23:16] That one's actually a tramway, kind of more like Snowbird's tram. And so they're used for public transportation at amusement parks, state fairs. Let's see what else. There's a few at stadiums. So like the Miami Dolphins down in Florida have a gondola at their stadium that goes between the parking lot and the stadium. So chairlifts and gondolas and tramways are very efficient ways to move people, not just at ski resorts.

Tom Kelly: [00:23:48] Have you spent any time in Europe yet?

Peter Landsman: [00:23:51] I have been to Europe on a tour of the cities just for fun, but I have never skied in Europe. And just last week I booked a plane ticket to, uh, go to Innsbruck, Austria, after we close for the season in April. And so after Jackson closes, I'll go to, uh, finally ride some lifts in the Alps.

Tom Kelly: [00:24:12] Nice. It is so impressive to see some of the installations. It's a part of life. There's an integration with rail, with tramways, with chairlifts, where you may use those devices to ski, but you might use them to get the groceries.

Peter Landsman: [00:24:30] Absolutely. And part of this trip will be there's a conference of lift technology companies in Austria. So I'm going to go do a little skiing, check out the latest and greatest European lift technology and. Hopefully. Get some good skiing in.

Tom Kelly: [00:24:51] Cool. What a great story we are with Peter Landsman of liftblog. We're going to take a short break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about new lifts coming online this season here in Utah. We'll be right back.

Tom Kelly: [00:25:08] Welcome back. I'm with Peter Landsman from Liveblog and we're talking ski lifts today. We love hearing about your adventures, Peter, but let's kind of bring it close to home. For those of us here in Utah, those coming out to visit this winter, a lot of new lifts going in in Utah this winter. Any that you want to highlight?

Peter Landsman: [00:25:24] Sure. Utah is always a place where there are always new lifts going in every year. Sundance is doing an expansion again this year. They added two new lifts last year, and this year they're adding a fixed grip quad in a new area kind of between the front mountain and the back mountain. There's a nice little pocket with some good intermediate, low intermediate terrain between some trees, and so there'll be a new, new quad chair, new runs, and I'm excited to get back there.

Tom Kelly: [00:26:00] Did you get there last year to see the new lifts?

Peter Landsman: [00:26:03] I did, yeah. So they had the Outlaw Express, which was a big new improvement. The old Ray's lift was quite the ride there. That was one of the longest lift rides in the United States. And wow, what a change. The new lift not only replaced the raise, but it goes up higher. And that was a major, major improvement at Sundance.

Tom Kelly: [00:26:23] For those who didn't get to Sundance last year, it was a real transformation. The two things that were done, cutting some new runs so you could get from the back mountain all the way to the base and adding the new express lift and and just kind of imagining off the top of Jake's where this new lift is going to go. It's going to again, transform that area even more.

Peter Landsman: [00:26:46] Right. And they've not just done lifts. I mean, the new ownership there has done snowmaking. They've regraded some areas where you couldn't easily get before. And yeah, exciting things happening at Sundance.

Tom Kelly: [00:26:59] Cool. How about a Deer Valley you know on its face the the new lift there or the realignment of the burns lift might not seem like much, but it's pretty transformational for the beginner experience there.

Peter Landsman: [00:27:11] Yes. So the Burns lift is actually going to be one of the shortest high speed lifts in the country. But it's creating a really important link. So it's not going where the old Burns lift was. It's actually going from the top of the Snowflake lift up higher. So beginner and intermediate skiers will be able to progress from Snowflake to Burns. And then Burns is going to connect to the mountaineer lift. So you'll be able to enjoy all of that terrain without having to ride those two existing high speed quads out of the base that are sometimes so busy down there at Deer Valley.

Tom Kelly: [00:27:51] Yeah, when I heard about this one and started to think about it, at first it didn't really catch my attention. But the more I started to think this is really going to be an amazing, amazing experience for someone who's just learning to ski. They want to kind of go out a little bit further on the mountain, and this gives them a great opportunity to hit some really fun terrain.

Peter Landsman: [00:28:12] Absolutely. And there's a new run there and they're there grading it and making it a really nice step up from that conveyor area at the bottom. Then you'll have some really nice terrain just above that to ski.

Tom Kelly: [00:28:26] So some changes that Alta this year, too.

Peter Landsman: [00:28:28] Yeah. Alta is putting in their first six passenger chairlift so they're replacing Sunnyside which as folks remember was a high speed triple which was a very unique, uncommon lift. If you're worried about the old sunny side, it's actually going to live on in Montana at a ski area that bought it. But the new Sunnyside will be a six passenger lift replacing Sunnyside and Albion. So they'll be just one lift eventually out of that base area.

Tom Kelly: [00:29:01] Do you also try to track the lineage of lifts, like where they were born and where they've ended up?

Peter Landsman: [00:29:06] I do. So some of them have moved two or three or four times. As an example, Deer Valley's old Homestake Lift went to my home mountain in Washington, Crystal Mountain, where it's now operating again. So if lifts are not that old and being removed, there's a good chance that they will end up at another ski area down the line.

Tom Kelly: [00:29:30] And then, of course, the Snowbird tram. We had our opening episode on Last Chair. This year we hung that baby out over the Cirque and did a podcast with Jake and Dave and that was a lot of fun. But that's a really iconic change.

Peter Landsman: [00:29:44] It is. I actually got to ride it this summer when just after the new blue was put on. Man, the glass floors are incredible. It's going to have a balcony in the summertime next summer, and the whole thing is glass. So the old tram was great. It was a classic, but the time had come to make an upgrade there. And the new tram cars are just incredible.

Tom Kelly: [00:30:11] Yeah, it's going to be a great experience and that both cabins will be online for the opening this year in early December. We've also got some installations at two areas that are not open to the public. Wasatch Peaks Ranch, which is a private resort, not all that far from Snowbasin. And they're adding, what, a third lift.

Peter Landsman: [00:30:29] Their third chairlift. So they had two for their opening season last year and they're just adding a third one, which I think is a beginner lift. That's one of those ski areas I have not been to because it's private. But we'd love to someday.

Tom Kelly: [00:30:44] And then Utah Olympic Park, which is near and dear to me, it was the site of many of the events for the 2002 Olympic Winter Games. They actually and folks, if you're coming to Park City this year, you need to go up to the park and it's open only for training purposes. But you need to look at what they're doing with the West peak expansion, but they're putting in a nice lift.

Peter Landsman: [00:31:05] They are. And one of the things people don't realize, too, is you can go up there and in the summertime you can hike and bike and enjoy the Olympic Park. But for the winter, this new lift is going on, a new peak off to the side of the current ski jumps. And it's going to have night lighting, snowmaking, a high speed quad. And that will just be great for the athletes to train on. And it's great for them not to have to go to another resort to get those runs in on bigger terrain.

Tom Kelly: [00:31:39] I remember back when I first moved to Utah in the late eighties, we took a walk of that area to look at the opportunities for putting Olympic events. And, you know, we were there to really look at where do we put a ski jump. But we all kept looking out to that peak in the West. And it just has amazing terrain, about 1000 feet of vertical, super nice, steep pitch. And for race training, it's going to be just remarkable.

Peter Landsman: [00:32:03] And a high speed lift. I mean, that's going to be laps like every three or 4 minutes. So you couldn't ask for much better training for athletes.

Tom Kelly: [00:32:12] Brand new Dopplmayer lift. It has towers in place and that lift will be ready and operating this winter. I know there's a number of things coming potentially in the 23 for the 24 season. Many of these are just in Forest Service approval. But can you highlight a few of the things we might look for next year?

Peter Landsman: [00:32:33] Sure. Solitude. They've said that they are going to be replacing the Eagle Express. It's a high speed quad that was built by a company that didn't build very many lifts. And it was a very early iteration of the high speed quad. So it's time has come to get upgraded. The new lift will be another high speed quad. They haven't said yet which manufacturer, but it will run roughly the same alignment and that'll be a great upgrade for reliability at Solitude. And then next door at Brighton. I'm not sure the timeline exactly, but Brighton is seeking approval to build a new Crest Express, so the high speed quad there will likely be replaced by a larger lift, probably a six person lift that may have some. More modern features like bubbles or seat heating. We'll have to wait and see. But the company that owns Brighton, Boyne Resorts, has really made a big effort at their resorts across the country to introduce some of these technical features, like heated seats and bubbles.

Tom Kelly: [00:33:41] When resorts are looking for lifts. Who are the companies that they can shop?

Peter Landsman: [00:33:47] There are two primary companies. One of them is based right here in Utah, Dopamine or USA. They build lifts all over the world, but their US headquarters is right here. And then the other big one is called Leitner Poma of America. And they're also a European company with their headquarters in Colorado for the US market. And they built, for example, the Supreme at Alta, and they are building the new lift at Alta this summer and they last year built the new lift at Snowbasin.

Tom Kelly: [00:34:23] Yeah I was just going to give a shout out to that because that new Middle Bowl Express up at snow base and another real transformational change if you have skied Snowbasin before, undoubtedly you have skied Middle Bowl. It's a great area to ski. It was just painfully slow to get to the top. Now you are zipped right to the top with that new lift and it's really, really improved the ski experience.

Peter Landsman: [00:34:44] Yeah. In the past, Doppelmayr had a huge portion of the Utah market. But Leitner Poma has really made an effort to build a lot of the larger lifts in Utah these last few years. And one of their subsidiaries is actually called Skytrac, which builds fixed grip lifts. And Skytrac is also based in Salt Lake City. So some of these new fixed grip lifts going in in Utah will be Skytrac built right here in Salt Lake.

Tom Kelly: [00:35:11] When you buy a lift, what do you do to put it in? Does the manufacturer do that or are there companies that specialize in installations?

Peter Landsman: [00:35:19] There are three different ways a lift gets built. One is you pay the manufacturer to install it. That, I would say, is the most common. So either Doppelmayr or Skytrac or Leitner-Poma would install their lift that they manufactured. Some ski areas hire a third party contractor to install it. So like the Summit Express at Solitude was installed by a company that specializes in lift installation called Highlander. And then the third way is the ski area installs it themselves. So some ski resorts have enough manpower and knowledge to actually just buy the equipment and do all the work and the concrete and the foundations and put the lift together themselves. So that's a little bit of a lot of work to install a lift. But some ski area owners and managers take pride in it and they do it themselves.

Tom Kelly: [00:36:16] You know, it really is an amazing thing to see. And I'm sure you've been involved with some installations before, but the use of helicopters to fly in the concrete forms and to fly in the towers, and it's just you just sit there and awe and watch this thing come down.

Peter Landsman: [00:36:30] Yeah. It's it's entertaining to me. Every every year you hear skiers wondering if a lift's going to get finished, worried about not seeing a lot of progress. And what's going on during that time is all of the concrete, the civil work, the groundwork. And then once the helicopter shows up and the crane shows up, the lift goes up in a matter of hours and days. And then everybody's like, wow, it's almost finished.

Tom Kelly: [00:36:56] You know the piece, though, that always mystified me and it still mystifies me is how do you bring the two ends of the cables together and secure them so they're tight and yet they're still smooth and going around the wheels.

Peter Landsman: [00:37:10] It's called a splice, and it's a very technical marriage of two ends of a haul rope. There are specialized specialists whose only job is to go around the country and splice these ropes. So they basically unwind both ends of a cable and weave the strands together, make some cuts, do some pounding with hammers. And at the end, you've got a nice smooth loop of rope. And nobody, unless you're a real technical guy like me, nobody really knows where the marriage even is.

Tom Kelly: [00:37:48] Are you able to, when you're riding a lift or watching a lift, are you pretty much able to figure out where the splice is?

Peter Landsman: [00:37:54] Yes. When you ride lifts enough or if you're a lift mechanic, you know, but just by feel where the splice is, there are typically six little bumps where that splice is. And then also those marriages where the six ends of the rope get tucked in are painted typically. So if you look closely on a chairlift, you'll see paint marks, six of them usually. And you can tell that's where the splice is, but you have to really be paying attention.

Tom Kelly: [00:38:25] Are you able to undo the splice if you wanted to do any changes?

Peter Landsman: [00:38:30] Yes. Ropes typically have to get shortened. They stretch over time. So they're not technically ropes. They're cables. But we call them haul ropes in the industry and they do stretch and over time, so they have to get shortened so the splice gets undone, shortened and then re spliced.

Tom Kelly: [00:38:49] Speaking of ropes stretching over time, can you talk to us about. Different colors that towers are painted and why?

Peter Landsman: [00:38:59] Yeah. So in the past lift towers were painted and they needed to be painted for rust corrosion protection. So different resorts like Deer Valley has their signature green. If they needed to be painted, it was a good kind of branding opportunity to paint whatever color the resort wanted. More modern lifts are typically galvanized, so you'll see on new lifts they're typically a silvery color, they're galvanized, and those come that way from the factory. And then they don't have to be painted their entire life. The galvanization will just stay on there. The whole life of the lift is there.

Tom Kelly: [00:39:35] Is there heat shrinkage or or expansion on the lift towers? It impacts things as well.

Peter Landsman: [00:39:42] Yes. So, again, if you're a lift rider that likes to pay attention to these things, if you look in sunny places, certain lifts, like at Snowbird. In very sunny places. They'll be very deliberate about painting lift towers, either white or black, depending on whether they're going to be in the sun and which aspect the lift faces. So you want to have a white tower where it's very sun affected and not you don't want to have the tower get too hot and warp. So if the sun's going to be if a tower is south facing, you'll typically see it painted white so that the sun affects it less than a dark colored tower.

Tom Kelly: [00:40:25] And folks, if you're out there skiing, Deer Valley is a good example, because I know there are some situations there where the towers are different colors, but there is a reason for that. It's not just because somebody was trying to mix and match. Let's talk about Utah Lifts. And, you know, I'd love it if you could maybe give us some examples of what you consider to be iconic or real difference maker lifts here in Utah.

Peter Landsman: [00:40:48] Well, I've got to start with the King of Utah lifts, which is the Snowbird tram. We talked about it a little bit. And I know you had Dave Fields and his team on your podcast, the first episode, but it's just the king. There's no faster way to get a. Thousands of vertical feet than the Snowbird tram. You get on it, you're whisked up there and you're at the top in no time. And no other lift in Utah is quite as fast as the Snowbird tram. Nearby. I would say an iconic lift for me as a technical is the Collins lift at Alta. It was one of the first lifts in Utah to have a turn where you ride through a mid station and it actually replaced two different lifts. It's technically very interesting because it's actually still two lifts and the chairs actually transfer between the two sections. So it has two motors to haul ropes to braking systems and the lift chairs just transfer between the two ends every time.

Tom Kelly: [00:41:55] This goes back a few years and I can't remember when that lift was installed, but did you ski Alta when it was two lifts to the top on that side?

Peter Landsman: [00:42:04] I did, and I rode the old Germania.

Tom Kelly: [00:42:06] All right. It's a whole different experience there now.

Peter Landsman: [00:42:09] It is. It's one lift, effectively one lift when you're riding it to the ridge. And yeah, it's very different from the old. Get off a lift, go to another lift, wait in line again, and then eventually get to the top.

Tom Kelly: [00:42:26] Cool. And I know skiers, when you're out there, you're going to start to look. When you make that angle transfer, you're going to look up and you're going to see, oh, we are going to a completely different lift now.

Peter Landsman: [00:42:36] Yep.

Tom Kelly: [00:42:37] Interesting. How about another one?

Peter Landsman: [00:42:40] Park City? They have so many lifts there. But my favorite at Park City is the Quicksilver Gondola put in a few years ago by Vail Resorts when they connected Canyons to Park City. Lifts like Quicksilver are really cool to me because they go through a bunch of different types of terrain. So on the canyon side, it's going through the trees and then it makes a turn on the ridge, goes down into Park City and over Thaynes Canyon. That lift is way in the air, hundreds of feet above the ground. So there's really kind of a ride experience as you go up it. It's got different scenery along the way.

Tom Kelly: [00:43:21] Yeah, Living in Park City, that lift was really transformational. And my favorite ski day now is to start at Canyons. Go to Quiksilver, head on over to Park City, drop down to Main Street and take the bus back. It just kind of gives you that feel like you're in Europe and skiing village to village.

Peter Landsman: [00:43:40] It's a total game changer for that resort and. Whether you're going from Park City to Canyons or Canyons to Park City, Quiksilver is so important to that whole operation.

Tom Kelly: [00:43:52] Yeah. Let's go up to Snowbasin and lift that. It's my favorite and a lot of people just forget about it.

Peter Landsman: [00:43:59] John Paul is my favorite at Snowbasin. Chairlift. You know, people see the gondolas and they maybe go there first. But John Paul is actually one of the top chairlifts in the United States for vertical rise. It's 2,400 vertical feet in about eight minutes. It serves a huge amount of terrain, including the Olympic downhills, and also happens to have an amazing restaurant with great food at the top.

Tom Kelly: [00:44:29] It really is fun. And folks, that's if you go to Snowbasin and you're naturally drawn to take one of the two gondolas, the one right out of the main base. But if you kind of look over behind the administration building, there's another lift tucked there and that's John Paul. And I really urge you to take that. And you know, you're right on this 8 minutes serving all of that terrain.

Peter Landsman: [00:44:48] It's incredible. And a fun fact about that, too, is it's the third largest vertical chairlift in the United States and the one and two are owned by the same company. Snow Base and sister resort, Sun Valley. And so between Sun Valley and Snow base. And they have the top three most vertical chairlifts in the United States.

Tom Kelly: [00:45:09] Yeah, it's remarkable. Got one more.

Peter Landsman: [00:45:11] One more. I have to throw in a fixed grip chairlift there. I know Utah has a lot of high speed, newer, detachable lifts, but at Powder Mountain is my favorite Utah fixed grip lift, which is Paradise. It's a fixed grip quad that services a huge amount of terrain, just like every lift at Powder Mountain, just a vast amount of terrain off each lift. And Paradise, in particular, is a bunch of advanced terrain that I enjoy, and the lift ride is a little slower. It's more of a classic lift, but it's a great one.

Tom Kelly: [00:45:45] Yeah. This has been fascinating to take a look at some of these lifts, but let's kind of look out into the future. We had Katarina Schmitz from Doppelmayr USA last year and she talked a little bit about this. But as you look into the future, what types of innovations do you see coming that are going to impact how we get up our mountains?

Peter Landsman: [00:46:05] So some of it's behind the scenes technical aspects that we deal with as lift employees that the public may not see. The big one of those is called Direct Drive. So for example, Alta's new Sunnyside lift is going to have a direct drive and it's a new kind of motor for ski lifts that directly operates on the bow wheel. So it takes out a whole lot of components of the drive system of a lift that could fail. So traditional ski lifts have a regular electric motor like you'd see in a factory, and then it connects to a gearbox and there are a bunch of different shafts. These newer lifts are much simpler. These efficient direct drives are quieter, they're less likely to break down and they are more efficient from an energy perspective. And then from a skier perspective, some of the changes coming down the line you've seen a little bit at the canyons with the orange bubble, more comfortable chairs, So newer lifts, some places have heated seats. Upholstered seats that are comfortable, bubbles, locking restraint bars that are safer for children. So all of those kind of innovations are coming down the line.

Tom Kelly: [00:47:27] So is wifi coming.

Peter Landsman: [00:47:30] It's been toyed with, but it's kind of becoming obsolete because now a lot of ski resorts have pretty good 5G service. So I'm not sure wifi will be necessary, but it has been done in Europe and we'll see if that makes its way over here.

Tom Kelly: [00:47:44] I kind of just mentioned a crazy suggestion, but you are right. I mean, the coverage at ski resorts on your phones is much better. And I think the resorts have really used that to their advantage.

Peter Landsman: [00:47:53] Yes. And on that front, another thing that's being toyed with in Europe and probably going to come over here is having ski lift stations monitored remotely through cloud technology. So the cameras, motion sensors. So there will be a human watching the lift, but they may not be standing there at the lifts, in a jacket. They may be in an office without a computer watching cameras and sensors.

Tom Kelly: [00:48:24] So when I started skiing, double chairlifts, fixed grip, that was pretty much de rigueur. And then it kind of went up to triples. Then it went up to quads. Then it went up to detached tables. A few years ago, we saw the six packs come in at Park City Mountain and a few other places. Now we've got talk of eight packs coming in. Where does the seat arrangement, where is that going on chairlifts.

Peter Landsman: [00:48:47] I think eight is probably the limit as far as how many skiers you can line up in a row.

Tom Kelly: [00:48:53] And thank you for that, by the way.

Peter Landsman: [00:48:54] And have them sit down and then be able to get off and not crash. I think where you're talking about larger cabins or larger numbers of people on one carrier, maybe gondolas. There's more room for going from eight person to ten or 12. That could be pretty efficient because people generally know how to crowd into something when they're walking better than when they're on skis. But I don't think you'll see ten or 12 or 14 lined up sideways on a chairlift.

Tom Kelly: [00:49:25] Yeah. And I think, you know, and actually you're talking to Katharina and some of the resort operators. One of the big things in looking at what you're going to do for chairlift is how the loading experience is for those of us who ski and snowboard. We don't think about that. We know how to use a chairlift. But for most people getting into our sport, this is a really new and daunting experience. So that's a big part of how these resorts set up their lifts.

Peter Landsman: [00:49:45] Absolutely. I didn't mention when we talked about technology, these loading conveyors, which a few Utah resorts have gone to, but you stay standing when you're getting on the chairlift. But the floor is moving. So you're not actually standing on snow. You're standing on a conveyor belt that moves you to the load area that can add efficiency. The cool thing about those is they can also be raised up. So a child, if they're not very tall and the lift operator sees that they may need some help, then the whole platform can raise up just a little bit to make it easier to load. And then gondolas are also a big boon for loading efficiency because people generally are good at walking. And so I think you'll see more gondolas going in and beginner areas because they are efficient and comfortable for beginner skiers.

Tom Kelly: [00:50:39] Good. A lot of cool stuff on the horizon.

Peter Landsman: [00:50:42] Absolutely. I love following the lift industry because things are always changing. They're always introducing new technology and ski resorts are always looking to buy that new technology.

Tom Kelly: [00:50:54] Well, Peter, thanks for sharing all of your knowledge and insights and telling us a little bit about your journey. We're going to close out this episode of Last Chair with Fresh Tracks, a series of final questions for you. And we've probably talked a little bit about this already, but what's the most bizarre lift that you've ever encountered across the 2381 that you went out and visited?

Peter Landsman: [00:51:16] I would say there's a chairlift up in Alaska that actually uses wooden towers. So most lifts these days are all metal, steel, aluminum. There's a chairlift up in Alaska that's made with wooden towers, and it's unlike any other chairlift I've seen in the country.

Tom Kelly: [00:51:38] You know, it's funny, you know, you look at all the old mining installations around Deer Valley and Park City Mountain as an example, where you can still see some of the old towers. I think those are even metal. So why did they ... do you know why they went with wood?

Peter Landsman: [00:51:51] Probably a surplus of trees nearby. And it's hard to get things around into Alaska and that's what they had. So they went with what they knew.

Tom Kelly: [00:51:59] You've had an opportunity to ski all over the country. Now you're starting to explore up in Canada. Do you have a favorite Utah ski run?

Peter Landsman: [00:52:08] I would say off the Super Condor at the Canyon's Apex Ridge checked some boxes for me because it goes next to a lift under a lift and is just a great cruiser.

Tom Kelly: [00:52:20] Yeah, it really is. And folks, if you don't know that one, it's that if you look up at the mountain as far as skiers right at canyons and it is a great run. What's the most futuristic lift that you expect to see in your lifetime?

Peter Landsman: [00:52:36] Oh, probably it will probably be in a city rather than a ski resort. These gondolas are really starting to become public transportation in South America and in Europe. So I think we'll see in a US city at some point a very futuristic lift that is automated with very efficient loading features and connects neighborhoods rather than ski trails.

Tom Kelly: [00:53:02] You know, it's interesting. I'm going to go up to Ogden because Ogden actually had talked about a lift somewhat like that from downtown up to Mount Ogden. Was that maybe before your time or are you familiar with that discussion?

Peter Landsman: [00:53:14] I'm familiar. I think they were maybe just a little bit early on the urban lift front. It's the technology that has really taken off since then in terms of. The amount of time needed to build a lift in an urban setting and the efficiency of that lift. So just recently, in the last week, Mexico City announced that they're going to build another new Doppelmayer lift. And it's going to connect like six different neighborhoods and it's going to be built in 15 months. So compared to light rail or buses, gondolas can be really efficient. And the technology has come a long way in just a few years.

Tom Kelly: [00:53:54] In the Mexico City installation is Doppelmayr going with ... was it the 3S gondola the similar to what is used up at Whistler. Do you know?

Peter Landsman: [00:54:03] It's going to be a regular mono cable gondola, we call them. So like you'd see at Park City, but the cabins will be very close together. They'll hold ten people each and the line is going to move very quickly, so it will be able to move ... they're talking about being able to move over 100,000 people a day.

Tom Kelly: [00:54:22] Cool.

Peter Landsman: [00:54:23] On a gondola.

Tom Kelly: [00:54:23] I just love those. You get to ski a lot. Groomers, glades, bumps or powder.

Peter Landsman: [00:54:31] Got to go with powder.

Tom Kelly: [00:54:32] Almost everybody does. Everyone saw. I actually will go with groomer. But any memorable powder days here in Utah?

Peter Landsman: [00:54:41] My first day I ever skied in Utah was a ski trip to Alta and we stayed up at Alta. I went out in the morning powder everywhere, and I think the road was closed. So it was one of those days you hear about when nobody's there. Weekday powder. Amazing.

Tom Kelly: [00:54:58] Nothing like a good interlodge day. Yeah, exactly. Do you have a favorite High West Whiskey?

Peter Landsman: [00:55:04] I have not tried any, but I talked to a coworker yesterday because I knew I would get asked that question. And he said without hesitation. Double rye.

Tom Kelly: [00:55:12] Double rye. Okay, very good. Well, on one of your trips this winter, we'll get you introduced. Finally, in just one word, What has this whole ski lift adventure meant to you? In one word.

Peter Landsman: [00:55:24] Freedom.

Tom Kelly: [00:55:26] Freedom. Love it. Peter Landsman, liftblog. Thanks for sharing your adventures and for all you do to bring the word of skiing to so many people around the world.

Peter Landsman: [00:55:34] Thank you. Thank you, Tom.