S7 Ep3 - Chris Cushing - TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Tom Kelly: Welcome back to the High West Whiskey Library. We're with Chris Cushing, my good friend and ski resort designer, here on Last Chair. And Chris, great to have you here at the High West Library. There's a lot of bottles over there.

[00:00:14] Chris Cushing: Yeah, we're going to go through all those. We'd be in some trouble.

[00:00:17] Tom Kelly: Yeah, I think we would be in some big trouble. This is actually … I was talking to them earlier today. They have a version of every brand that they've ever bottled up on that wall. They got a few vodkas in there, too. And a little bit later, we're going to be trying the High West Rendezvous, one of their signature lines here at High West Distillery. The High West Whiskey library is in the distillery in Wanship. And for all of you visiting Utah, make sure you stop in and check out the saloon in Park City, or check out the distillery here in Wanship. I'm really curious. We're just about to the point where resorts are going to be opening. You've been in this for a long time, and you build all these places. So you're working when you're at these resorts, but do you still when November comes around, do you still get an itch like, oh, ski season's coming?

[00:01:06] Chris Cushing: Oh yeah. You know, when it comes time to renew the season pass and wait for the temperatures to get down to snowmaking temperatures? It's exciting. So.

[00:01:15] Tom Kelly: Well, Chris, you were one of the most one of the foremost ski area designers in the world. We're going to talk more about that. Talk about some of your accolades. But tell us a little bit about what you do.

[00:01:27] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Wow. Well, we do a lot. I mean, there's a lot of different variety to the types of projects we work on. But they really can kind of be broken down into five categories. One is, you know, site evaluations, initial site evaluations. If big landowners are looking at an opportunity to build a ski resort on their property or, uh, you know, looking at the existing conditions of a … of additional … of a new existing resort, you know, vision and concept planning, master planning, project-specific planning, like putting in a new lift or a new ski run or what have you, and then design an implementation, which is what's happening at Deer Valley East Village right now with the implementation of that, that project.

[00:02:11] Tom Kelly: So when you were a kid, I know your father, Joe, was in the industry, but when you were a kid, did you sit in school and kind of map out trail designs and lifts? I think I did that with golf courses when I was a kid. But did you do that with kind of imaginary ski areas?

[00:02:26] Chris Cushing: Drawing race courses and ski trails? And, you know, when I was, you know, very young, the office for Sno.Engineering, the former SE group, was right across the river from where I grew up. And I used to go over to their offices and look at maps and color ski trails. And I actually had an opportunity later on to go on some field trips with my dad, laying out ski runs and so forth. So it was kind of inbred there.

[00:02:53] Tom Kelly: There are not a ton of companies that do this worldwide. And the SE Group, formerly Snow Engineering, is one of the foremost. Talk a little bit about the evolution of your company. SE Group and you run the office here in Salt Lake City, right?

[00:03:07] Chris Cushing: Right. Well, the company started in 1958, and actually it started, with a I think there were three engineers that started the company to do engineering for ski resorts, and their business wasn't all that robust. And they brought on a guy named Sel Hannah, to bring ski design, the trail design into the company. Ultimately sell bought them out and moved the company up to New Hampshire, which is where my dad became involved. And, we were in New Hampshire for many years and then moved over to Burlington, Vermont. We've had offices in the West since the early 70s, uh, first solely in Colorado. And then we opened an office in Utah, kind of bounced back and forth between Colorado and Utah. And now we have the offices in Burlington, Vermont and Colorado and here in Salt Lake City.

[00:04:01] Tom Kelly: How many companies like SE Group would you say there are in the world?

[00:04:06] Chris Cushing: Well, boy, maybe a half a dozen.

[00:04:11] Tom Kelly: So not many. Not many.

[00:04:13] Chris Cushing: Worldwide.

[00:04:14] Tom Kelly: No, no. So if I'm looking to build a new ski area, I'm coming to you. Right. Okay, let's talk a little bit about what you've accomplished by the numbers. And this was just staggering to me as we've talked in the past, but in your 40 years of working in this industry, how many ski areas around the world do you think that you've touched?

[00:04:36] Chris Cushing: You know, it's so hard to figure that out. It's at least 200 resorts, probably a lot more than that, but certainly more than 200.

[00:04:46] Tom Kelly: Wow. How many countries?

[00:04:49] Chris Cushing: Well, I don't know if I could tell you the number of countries.

[00:04:52] Tom Kelly: How about continents?

[00:04:53] Chris Cushing: We've been in, you know, obviously North America, South America, Asia, Europe and Australia. And, you know, I don't know how many countries, but we've really some of the countries we have done work in are very interesting. We did some projects in Kosovo. Azerbaijan. We built a ski area that the president of Azerbaijan lived in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains and wanted to build a ski resort. And he said, hey, I want to build a ski resort here. And we went out there and we said, you know, this isn't a good site to build a ski area. He said, look, I'm going to build a ski area here. You can help me or not, but it's going to happen. So.

[00:05:34] Tom Kelly: And were you on that gig?

[00:05:35] Chris Cushing: Yes. Yeah. And they built it. And it's operating today. Azerbaijan. Imagine that.

[00:05:40] Tom Kelly: How does it ski?

[00:05:44] Chris Cushing: Oh, skis.

[00:05:45] Tom Kelly: Great. Skis. Great. Exactly, exactly. No one gets in a business or an activity to win awards or to get honors. And I know you're a humble guy, but I'm going to talk about a couple of them now. One of them, this past spring, you were awarded by your peers at the National Ski Association with an NSAA Impact Award. What did that mean to you?

[00:06:09] Chris Cushing: I think that, ultimately it was just such a validation for, you know, the 40 years that I spent in this industry, you know, a recognition that that you know, after 40 years, um, you know, you're going to have some influence and, uh, you know, see a lot of different things. And more importantly, and I think one of the real reasons that I was honored with that award is that, you know, I kind of saw how things were happening in the 60s and 70s through my dad and getting into the business in the 80s and, and just being kind of that conduit of knowledge to the newer folks that are on our team now and helping them to understand some of those design philosophies and so forth. And again, it's just kind of a validation that that's been something that's that's recognized.

[00:06:53] Tom Kelly: You know, this is something that's been important to me in my career, and I know it is to you, too. And that is giving back to the next generation. So you've been in this business for 40 years. You have a lot of knowledge. What emotion do you get out of helping the next generation of designers to carry on your work? Yeah.

[00:07:14] Chris Cushing: To see these guys, these younger folks, elevating to the level where they're interacting with our clients, with, you know, confidence and assuredness and having that ability and something that I really feel strongly about is, is, you know, listening to what they're saying and not just talking at them, but, you know, talking with them and helping them to, you know, what I say is our job as consultants is to give our clients the information they need to make good decisions. And that's what I try to tried to instill in our team. And I think that they're doing that. And that's really rewarding and fulfilling.

[00:07:59] Tom Kelly: So you talked a little while ago about Azerbaijan. And we have to remember that you're the consultant. You're helping a client that wants to build something to do it in the best way possible. How over time, have you established the relationship of trust and confidence in those clients so that when they come to SE Group and they talk to you, Chris, that they really trust what you're going to do for them on their property?

[00:08:25] Chris Cushing: Well, it's being honest, and it's being it's having a reputation for not being a yes man. On the other hand, it also involves, again, talking with them and understanding and trying to help them realize their vision. In some cases, like Azerbaijan, the client didn't really know what he wanted. So it was up to us to tell him, okay, this is how it can work. But yeah, I just, you know, I've felt it's really important to, uh, interact with the client and help them to, to make their vision become reality.

[00:09:00] Tom Kelly: So the award you got from NSAA honored you within your peer group with your other resort designers and the ski areas that you've worked with. This April at Snowbird, you will be inducted into the US Ski and Snowboard Hall of Fame. And that puts you up there with great athletes, with great visionaries. And you were at the party in September where it was announced that you were going to be inducted. Your father, Joe, is in the Hall of Fame. And if I'm not mistaken, I think the only other father-son combo in the Hall of Fame is Alf Engen and his son, Alan. So you're in some great company. What does that mean to you?

[00:09:42] Chris Cushing: Yeah. So when I first got the announcement … the email announcement from Justin, there was a link to all the recipients of the of the Hall of Fame, inductees of the Hall of Fame. And I went through the list. And what is there, like almost 600 now?

[00:09:58] Tom Kelly: It's just under 500 right now.

[00:10:02] Chris Cushing: Looking at the names there, Dick Durrance and Chuck Lewis and, you know, my dad and then, you know, Bode and and all the other racers. It's just it's, you know, it's very good company.

[00:10:15] Tom Kelly: Yeah, it really is. Talk about your father, though. Your father, Joe, was a great designer … designed Deer Valley. You kind of picked it up from there. But being in the hall together with him, you know. What was your conversation like with him when you told him?

[00:10:32] Chris Cushing: He was very, … he was honored or, you know, proud, I guess. And my dad is a very stoic guy, and he doesn't show his pride quite as much as others do. But he… I could tell he was proud. And in fact, the other day he called me, which is very unusual for him to call me. And he said that the local newspaper in northern New Hampshire, the Littleton Courier, I was on the front page of the Littleton Courier, and I'm wondering what the article right next to it was something having to do with, you know, a new sewer plant going in.

[00:11:06] Tom Kelly: Big news.

[00:11:08] Chris Cushing: Big news. But, yeah, that was his way of showing his. His pride is making that call.

[00:11:14] Tom Kelly: Do you remember his induction into the Hall of Fame?

[00:11:17] Chris Cushing: Yeah, I was in Ishpeming with him, and, uh, it was great. Yeah, that was the enshrinement, which was in Ishpeming. I didn't make it to the the event in Steamboat, but my brother and sister were there.

[00:11:29] Tom Kelly: Yeah. It is. And folks wonder about Ishpeming. It's actually where competitive skiing began back in the early 1900s. Uh, it's just a little bit west of Marquette, Michigan. But when you go back there and you go through the Hall of Fame, you really get a special sense. You're in a really unique place.

[00:11:48] Chris Cushing: Yeah, it really is great. You know, the exhibits. What was really fascinating to me is going down into their archives downstairs, and, you know, I mean, from old bindings to posters to, you know, plaques. I mean, it's just unbelievable the amount of memorabilia that they have down there.

[00:12:07] Tom Kelly: Yeah, it really is. I just love going down in that basement. Go back to your early childhood. Dad's out doing resorts all over the place. And do you remember that first time that he invited you along to walk trails with him?

[00:12:20] Chris Cushing: Yeah, I do, I do. I was probably I was probably 12 years old, maybe 14. He was working on a project in western … northwestern Massachusetts called Greylock Glen, a resort that never got built … it was on some very sensitive lands. But anyway, he asked if I wanted to come along and help him flag trails and and, I was like, was like, absolutely. And that was, you know, that was kind of the that's when the switch flipped. And I was like, man, I want to do this. And, you know, when I eventually went off to college, I said, hey, dad, you know what? What should I study in college to get into this business? And he said, well, you know, I think you should probably get a degree in civil engineering. So that's what I did. And a year after I graduated, an opening came up for actually … we did our company did still making engineering at the time. And there was an opening in that area. So I started there, and then after a couple of years, moved into the mountain planning, which is what I really wanted to do, what my dad did.

[00:13:24] Tom Kelly: Did your civil engineering degree, did that partner up pretty well with what you ultimately did?

[00:13:29] Chris Cushing: Very well, very well. You know, and oftentimes, you know, college degrees, in a lot of cases, people like you get a degree in civil engineering. You become a civil engineer. But really, what the benefit or the value I get from that civil engineering degree. I'm not a professional engineer, but it helped me solve problems and figure out ways to solve problems and approach things. And so, you know, an engineering degree was very helpful. And most of the people were hiring currently have engineering degrees, civil or mechanical engineering degrees.

[00:14:01] Tom Kelly: I want to take a little sidetrack here, but so your first start was actually working with snowmaking systems. And that was back in the 80s. Right. So what was it like in the 80s with snowmaking systems compared to maybe where we are today?

[00:14:15] Chris Cushing: Oh, it was … it was like like sophisticated plumbing systems. You know, it was it was pretty, pretty archaic, effective but archaic. And, you know, the first we did, one of the first projects I worked on was up in Newfoundland, area called Marble Mountain. And we designed the system we've got installed, and it came time to start it up. And, the guy was working with him, he asked me to go up and help them get it started up, and I got up there and it was a big media event, TV cameras. The mayor was there and we got it all fired up and got the guns set up and turned on the valves. And what came out of that gun was, uh, brown goo, rust and dirt had gotten into the pipes and, uh, this was all on TV, and everyone was sort of taken aback, and eventually it cleared up. But, uh, sort of an indication of the rudimentary nature of snowmaking back in that time.

[00:15:13] Tom Kelly: Yeah, that's for sure. We're going to talk more later in the podcast on this, on the science of it. I want to bring it back home to Utah. I know you've worked on five continents all over the world, but what are some of the more interesting projects you've worked on here in Utah? And we'll save Deer Valley for later, but what else have you worked on here in Utah that we might know?

[00:15:32] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Well, um, you know, I think one of the early things that I worked on here was for the Olympics in 2002. Olympics. I was specifically, specifically involved in designing CB’s run, which was the site of the GS back then. We're also involved with the installation at Deer Valley. We, … at Snowbird, when Snowbird built the tunnel, we helped them out with that, designing the tunnel. And since then, we've, you know, all along we've been helping them with new lift, you know, the Peruvian lift replacement, Little Cloud, Gad2. We're currently working with them on the chickadee replacement, which is a big deal. You know, we've worked at Alta, not a lot, but we helped them out a little bit with their master planning services. At Canyons we've been helping them out with the beginner area up at Red Pine Lodge. And we've also been, helping them with the Sunrise Gondola installation, which will fire up this year. Beaver Mountain. We … I helped out with the placement and kind of interface of their new day lodge with the ski runs, which was a really fun project. There's such a such a great mountain and such a great family. Deseelhorst. But, you know, currently we're helping Park City with their Winter Olympics planning, looking at the sites for the freestyle events. Wasatch Peaks. When Bob Wheaton transitioned from Deer Valley over to Wasatch Peaks, he asked me to come over and kind of put the master plan together. The ski master plan. And then, you know, our companies work. We're working at, I think, 13 of the 15 resorts here in Utah presently. So we really made our entry.

[00:17:23] Tom Kelly: I want to touch base on a couple of those that you mentioned. And first, let's talk about Park City. I'm a frequent Canyons skier, and I am loving watching the Sunrise Gondola get ready to go. It's all gleaming. The cars are on there right now. That's going to really help things in that Canyons Village base.

[00:17:42] Chris Cushing: It's really going to help a lot, and it's going to help energize that side of the village. But that was a really fascinating project in itself that, you know, a lot of the buildings there were there and with lifts, there's an airspace corridor that is required for fire purposes. It's basically 35ft off of the cable. So there's a total of like 90ft of, of, uh, clearance that you need to avoid buildings. We had 91ft between the, the Hyatt and the, the lift. I think it was vintage. Um, so we were really kind of strung in and, you know, we had options where the top could go, but we had to pivot on that little 91ft, uh, you know, corridor through those buildings.

[00:18:32] Tom Kelly: So maybe you could help us. I think a lot of people wonder why a gondola that's kind of in the same location as the other gondola. There is a reason for that, though, and maybe you could help us to understand how those traffic flows work, and how the Sunrise Gondola will really help things over at Canyon space.

[00:18:50] Chris Cushing: Yeah. You know, the thing that's going to be really helpful with the Sunrise Gondola is movement towards Tombstone. Until I guess that would be the East or southeast, Chicane, and that area from the existing Red Pine Gondola. You have to kind of skate around the corner to get to that side. The Sunshine Gondola will drop you off, uh, just on that side of the lodge, so you'll be able to scoot right over to chicane and get around to Tombstone. We're also looking at some beginner routes, um, that can kind of expand the areas where beginner skiers can get, and that would originate from the Sunshine Gondola and then just general traffic flow. I mean, um, you know, with the number of skiers that are that are visiting or entering the resort through Canyons. Initially there until now, there were only two lifts out of the base area. And as anyone who skied there knows, they got so backed up and long wait times and so forth. So this lift is going to completely ameliorate those issues. Um, and get people to where they want to go more quickly.

[00:19:58] Tom Kelly: Let's go up to Beaver Mountain and … excuse me. Let's go up to Beaver Mountain. And we had Nathan Rafferty on along with, Danny Richardson, an episode ago to talk about the 50-year anniversary of scutum. We talked a lot about Beaver Mountain. Quintessential family area, small place. And just a great feeling. You go up there, and that's all about skiing, right?

[00:20:26] Chris Cushing: Totally, absolutely. And, you know, a lot of history there. And obviously, the family is still involved, Marge.

[00:20:34] Tom Kelly: And Travis.

[00:20:35] Chris Cushing: Travis? Yeah. You know, they have a legacy that they're carrying forward. And, uh, you know, this was a big change for them. A big, big chunk. But it was so necessary. And I think that, um, you know, the team that was involved there, the architecture and our input and as well as as, uh, Travis and his team came up with a really great solution that's going to improve the guest experience in the morning, help people distribute out on the mountain, um, at the beginning of the day. And it's really going to help out a lot. And, you know, um, you know, Marge's cabin where the ticket sales are is a real relic. And, uh, um, yeah, I.

[00:21:16] Tom Kelly: Got to protect that, though. Got to protect that. I tell this story a lot, but I did a podcast with Travis a few years ago, and afterwards we went out and skied, and it was a weekday. There weren't a lot of people there, but he knew the names of everyone on the mountain. He's getting off a lift. He's waiting. Hi, Bob. You know. Hi. Janet knew everybody, and it was just so much fun. I think the story that I tell, whether it's true or not, is that we skied for 2.5 hours, and we only took three lift rides. We were just so enthralled with talking with everybody there. The socialization aspect.

[00:21:47] Chris Cushing: It's so refreshing to see that that still exists out there. You know, it's it's they're much more few and far between. But those gems like Beaver where that's the case, you're out there having a fun time talking with people. It's a social event and skiing is a social event, and that just embodies it at Beaver.

[00:22:04] Tom Kelly: Beautiful. Chris Cushing, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. We'll talk a little bit more about your design work, and we're going to really dive in a little bit to Deer Valley, East Village, and all the work you did there. We'll be right back here at the High West Whiskey Library on Last Chair.

[00:22:25] Tom Kelly: Welcome back to the High West Whiskey Library. Look at that collection on the wall. Isn't it amazing? I know Chris Cushing is my guest today on last year. And Chris, we've we've talked about a lot of things, but I want to focus in now on Deer Valley. First of all, very special significance because your father did most of the original design. Right. Walk us through that.

[00:22:42] Chris Cushing: Yeah. yeah. So back in 1978, Edgar Stern, contacted Sno.Engineering and my dad went out to take a look at Deer Valley. Edgar owned Park City at the time, and was interested in looking at Deer Valley. And he and my dad spent a lot of time together, um, looking at the mountain, flying over it and checking it out, and and, uh, uh, he and Edgar formed a very strong friendship and relationship, and, uh. Yeah, Edgar had him design the entire ski mountain and he was involved, you know, the original master plan he did back in the early 80s, went through lift Z, and the only lift from that master plan that hasn't been built yet is lift X, which is where the X trees are. And that's why they're called the X trees, because that terrain was originally planned to have a lift which was lift X.

[00:23:39] Tom Kelly: And okay, this is some really insightful information. Now there's nobody listening right now. When will that lift get built?

[00:23:50] Chris Cushing: Well, you know, um, if it weren't for East Village expansion, I would say fairly soon. Um, you know, visitation at Deer Valley has been really picking up recently and, uh, uh, you know, they were looking for other opportunities to, to add some more terrain. And again, that was all that was left from the original master plan. So we were starting to talk about doing lift X. Along comes Extell and Mayflower East Village. And uh, um, there's a lot more terrain available over there then with the X lift. So that's kind of where the focus has been obviously since then.

[00:24:34] Tom Kelly: We'll get back to East Village. But I want to know where is lift Z.

[00:24:38] Chris Cushing: Lift Z I believe, is Lady Morgan. It's either Lady Morgan or Empire or Empire.

[00:24:45] Tom Kelly: Okay. And that was an amazing addition to the resort some years ago. Had you been involved? Were you involved in that part of it?

[00:24:52] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. My first involvement was, it was in about 90, in the mid 90s and uh, when they were, um, embarking on the Empire Canyon, um, area, um, I helped with the runs that connect the top of Flagstaff Mountain down to the what's now the Empire Lodge, uh, helped them out with the siting of the lodge, um, where it ultimately ended up. And then, yeah, the installation of the Empire lift and more, more recently, Lady Morgan, we were all. I was involved with all of that. Um, that's, you know, my dad retired in 95, and that's when all that went down. So it was kind of the, you know, the passing of the, uh, the reigns, if you will, uh, where he, you know, he just couldn't get out of the mountains and walk around like he could before. And so he, you know, had the, you know, gave me the honor of, of kind of taking over.

[00:25:51] Tom Kelly: So, were you one of the first to dip your tips down into the daily shoots?

[00:25:57] Chris Cushing: I don't think so. Yeah. No, I think that, you know what it was, Chuck English or some of the earlier UPS guys over there. I think they were, because we didn't, you know, when we were looking at the Empire Canyon lift, you know, we were looking more towards the traditional Deer Valley experience of groomed runs and, um, you know, cleared runs and so forth. And, and, um, you know, we weren't we knew that the daily shoes were there, but it wasn't a real focus of the planning and more of a kind of okay, I mean, that's the way it works with ski planning. The hardest terrain to plan for is beginner followed by intermediate, and then the expert stuff is just, you know, it's just kind of a cakewalk.

[00:26:41] Tom Kelly: They tend to find it. Right. Tend to find it. You know, you know, this is interesting when you think back now. And I think that area has been open for 20 years or something like that. As you look back to kind of the original vision that they had and that you as the designer, put into that area in Empire Canyon, and now how it's used today, has it evolved a little bit, do you think, from the original thinking.

[00:27:03] Chris Cushing: And it really has, and the whole master plan that my dad did, there were some tweaks. I mean, you know, something I frequently say is, you know, the theory of operators know their mountains better than we do. And so we really value their input and their thoughts on things. And so through the whole, um, you know, not only for Deer Valley, but all the projects we work on, there's a level of Compromise or adjustment and an Empire Canyon. There was, you know, like the original concept was to have two lifts there, one lift that went about halfway up and then another that went from there to the top. And, you know, that was when that plan was done. It was only fixed grip lifts. So, it would have been a really long lift ride to do a top-to-bottom or bottom-to-top run. And um, but at the time they were ready to, to make the improvement, uh, obviously their detachable lifts and, you know, four, four and a half five-minute lift ride is very, very doable. So it transitioned from a two lift scenario to the single lift.

[00:28:03] Tom Kelly: Let's shift back over to East Village, which opened last year. It will open even more this year. But if you go back to the master plan that your father Joe worked on, I don't think that was ever really considered, was it?

[00:28:17] Chris Cushing: Well, there was a base area contemplated down there and, you know, like a couple of lifts, I think maybe two lifts that connected with the current Sultan lift, and there was some ski runs that went back down there, but it was really a real estate play, only it wasn't, you know, contemplating, um, certainly not what is being built today. It was a much more modest. And the problem or the challenge that the reason for that is that the ownership of the land on that side of the mountain was varied. There was about 4 or 5 different landowners. And they all, you know, they getting them to cooperate was, was challenging.

[00:28:56] Tom Kelly: When Deer Valley and Extell initially came to you Extell being the development company, did they have a grand vision? How much did you massage that to put it into what it will be today?

[00:29:09] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Um, they had a vision and they had, um, you know, some land acquisition goals that they were working with. And, well, when we first started working on the East Village area, it was actually Prestel. And we were looking at only essentially the terrain that you can currently see from the highway, from highway 40, which is just the front side of the mountain, and it kind of connects in with, with the salt and the Mayflower lift areas. When Extell came to us, they had indicated that they had a much bigger vision and were in the process of acquiring a lot more land. And that's when we saw the additional terrain that will be opening this year, portion of which will be opening this year. And so we kind of went from there. And even that plan has evolved to a certain degree as we've gotten into implementation.

[00:30:05] Tom Kelly: Yeah. It, um, put it into perspective as to how big a development is this compared to other big resort developments in the past 30 years in America?

[00:30:19] Chris Cushing: I mean, this is as big as when Deer Valley first opened. It's as big as Beaver Creek when they first opened. And those are the two, you know, most recent resorts here in the US. Well, Tamarack, but this is it was absolutely building an entire new ski resort. New village, uh, you know, the workforce housing, uh, elements they're doing. You know, I've really got to say, Extell is really shown their capability and their knowledge and their, you know, and how they've pulled this thing together. I mean, it's just an astronomical project in terms of the, the utilities, you know, building a substation on the site and getting the water rights and putting in all the infrastructure for the village. And it's just it's just staggering. I was up there a couple of weekends ago. I was up there for about three hours riding around on the side-by-side. And it's just it's just mind boggling what's going on up there and the homes that are being built and the Four Seasons Hotel under construction and the Day Lodge under construction. And the townhomes. It's just it's a whole it's like a it's like building a city. I mean, it's just amazing. Something like eight. What is it? 80 miles of snowmaking pipe on the ground. Um, power. I mean, this was a greenfield site. Nothing. No roads. Well, virtually no roads, no utilities, no nothing. And now, you know, we're having this ultra sophisticated snowmaking system and a restaurant on the top of the mountain. It's under construction, and it's just. It's nothing I've ever seen in my lifetime, for sure.

[00:31:56] Tom Kelly: Last season on last year, we had, Todd Bennett, who runs Deer Valley, and we also had Gary Barnett, who owns Extell. And it was interesting to have the two of them together. And you have someone in Todd who's a very experienced, savvy operator in the ski industry, and you have someone like Gary who doesn't have any ski area background but has a lot of development background. So you have this dichotomy of people, but I got a sense that they're really well aligned. And you've worked with both of them, and they really are moving together to make this a great product for skiers.

[00:32:29] Chris Cushing: Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, Gary, when he first, um, kind of became involved with this, recognized the value of, of, uh, you know, the Deer Valley difference and what that would bring to his resort. Uh, likewise, I think, um, and Deer Valley recognize, you know, the savvy that Gary has, the ability, the capabilities he has for development. And so really symbiotic relationship. And, you know, of course, I'm sure there's some little challenges here and there about things, you know, these are, you know, hundreds of millions of dollar deals. Um, but, you know, you talk to anyone from Deer Valley and anyone from Extell, and they're nothing but proud, just as proud as can be of what they're accomplishing. And they should be. It's really amazing.

[00:33:10] Tom Kelly: We had Garrett Lang on in our opening podcast of last year, this year, and had an opportunity to explore a little bit further. There's a couple of areas that I want you from your perspective to explore. First of all, like bust the myths that people have when they're saying it's too low or something like that, the elevations compared to Deer Valley today. How do they measure up?

[00:33:33] Chris Cushing: So the base of Deer Valley Snow Park is around 7000ft elevation. The base of East Village. The East Village is at about 6500ft elevation, so it is 500ft lower in elevation. But, um, when we were doing the planning of the snowmaking system, um, we worked with snowmaking engineer who does a weather study to establish pumping capacity and that type of thing. And he used, he collects historic temperature data. And there are two sites where he collected data. One of them this is NOAA Snotel site or not Snotel, but NOAA sites. And one of the sites was at Snow Park, the base of Deer Valley, and the other was on the other side of the highway from the east village. The temperatures at the base of each village are actually somewhat colder than the temperatures at the base of Snowpark, so the elevation really isn't an issue. You know, certainly in the later, like in April, you're going to get more, you know, it's going to be a little bit warmer, so you're going to get a little bit more snow melt in the, in the late season. And that, you know, has been mitigated through this, uh, this amazing snowmaking system. And, you know, we're talking about how deep the snow should be in the various parts of the mountain. The machine made snow. And, um, and that's been compensated for is that there will be, you know, they'll make more snow in the base area at the beginning of the year so that it lasts through to the end. Um, but, you know, anyone who skied there last year, it's just a non-issue. I mean, most of the runs coming back to the base are in a canyon or face north anyway. And so it really, um, except for, you know, the very last weeks of the season was a complete non-issue.

[00:35:24] Tom Kelly: Chris, I want to dive into that snow making a little bit. And it was apparent last winter that, wow, this is a really new and modern installation, you know, from the ground up with a blend of those, I think HCD stick guns and the techno alpine blow guns. You can tell us more about that, but how did they arrive at that combination and what kind of innovations are they putting in place with their snowmaking system?

[00:35:49] Chris Cushing: So basically, in terms of the gun selection, it really depends on the width of the trail and wind. The big fan guns, the TechnoAlpine fan guns can blow the snow much farther. And, um, and so that's what's used on the wider trails that are wind-exposed runs that don't have as much wind exposure, and there aren't many that have serious wind issues. But, .. and the narrower runs, they use the HKD stick guns because they don't throw as far, they can place the snow where it's needed. So minimize the amount of pushing that the groomers have to do. So that's kind of the process for the, the gun selection. In terms of the innovation,, I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I'm quite sure it will be the most sophisticated snowmaking system in North America. fully automated. Well, 99% automated. The water system, uh, you know, there's a robust water capacity from the Jordanelle reservoir. Despite that, there's a reservoir being built at the top of the mountain so that some of the snowmaking can be done with gravity.

[00:37:07] Chris Cushing: So you don't need any pumps at all. You just run the water down the pipe and make snow. Um, you know, the weather sensing and the automation of the snow guns themselves. Not only the snow guns, but also the automation of, you know, starting and stopping is all automated. All of the pipes are, are buried below the frost so they can stay filled with water all the time. And what that does is, is it makes it so that guns can turn on instantly. If the pipes have to be drained of water, then you have to start the pumps up, refill the pipes before you can make snow again. So those are just a couple of examples of some of the things they've done to really make this system. And it's designed to cover all of the terrain I believe by December 15th. So all of the what is it, 500 acres of new terrain, new built, developed terrain that, um, has snowmaking coverage can be covered. And don't hold me to that 500 acres. I'm getting my numbers. Anyway, we'll all be open by the 15th of December.

[00:38:15] Tom Kelly: Yeah, it really is amazing. Um, let's talk about the skier experience, and maybe you could share some insights as to where skiers. What are the best runs for skiers to go to this year? A lot of us had this great experience last year with the Green Monster, and a run that just has these breathtaking views as you as you come down the mountain, and it was also family friendly. So what are a couple of ideas for us on the new runs that we'll be opening this year?

[00:38:43] Chris Cushing: Yeah. You know, personally, the opening this past year was a little bit disappointing. Only because the areas that were opened, I mean, there were some, um, the Age of Reason is a really, really fun run. It's a great, great sort of lower intermediate run. Green Monster is a great, great thing to, you know, do that long trek and, uh, but the terrain that's going to open this year is, is completely different. The runs are much longer. There's much better fall line than what we had, what was introduced last year? Better fall lines and more variety. And a couple of the runs are, are clearly going to be, you know, signature runs for Deer Valley. The run that that really is going to, is going to be so much fun is, is called redemption. And it's, kind of on the backside of the mountain. It's about two and a half, three miles long and about 2600 vertical feet just straight down.

[00:39:46] Tom Kelly: Don't get many of those.

[00:39:49] Chris Cushing: It's really, really fun terrain. There's rolls, there's turns, there's pitches. People … I'm going to love it. I grew up skiing in the East. I love carving turns. I can't wait to ski that run.

[00:40:01] Tom Kelly: I used to ask this on the podcast, but if you had your option of a deep powder day or just some great carvers. Where are you going to go? I know where I'm going.

[00:40:10] Chris Cushing: Well that's tough. I mean, you know, a nice, fresh corduroy is hard to beat. It's really hard to beat. But I love powder skiing. And so, um. Yeah, that's a that's a tough, tough call one way or the other. I guess it depends on the quality of the powder, the quality of the corduroy.

[00:40:29] Tom Kelly: I'm going with the corduroy. I'm just at an age right now where the powder is too much work for me. I just love ripping nice corduroy turns early in the morning. Let's take a look into the crystal ball and look into the future. And who knows where things are going to go. But I'm just kind of curious as to where innovation is going in the industry. And we've talked a lot about snow making as we look forward, uh, what are what are some of the elements of the innovation in snow making that we can look to see in, in the future?

[00:41:00] Chris Cushing: Well, in snow making they just continue the company, the snow making manufacturers just continue to improve their product. And, you know, even in the past ten years, it's staggering how much more efficient the snow guns are. The fan guns, you know, they're using ceramic nozzles and, you know, different ways of automating in order to get the best quality of snow based on temperatures and so forth. Um, and it's going to keep going. I mean, I think that that, um, you know, snowmaking will clearly be part of the ski industry forever. And so, um, it's an area that there's a lot of innovation possible. You know, I don't have a crystal ball. I have no idea where it's going to go. It's, you know, it's a fairly fundamental or basic physics experiment of breaking up water molecules so that they make snow as quickly as possible. You know, I think that the, automation of pumps and, and, you know, the variable speed drives, which are much more energy efficient. Things like that. That, you know, I'm not a mechanical engineer, and I don't know what kind of things can be done, but there's just so many opportunities. And, um, yeah, I think that, um, it's going to be with us for a long time and it's going to just get better and better.

[00:42:22] Tom Kelly: On snow grooming. It's so much fun to watch the evolution of what the machines look like today. I don't know the story behind them, but I know there's a higher level of comfort for operators than there was 30-40 years ago. But what are some of the innovations that we might see in snow grooming equipment?

[00:42:39] Chris Cushing: Yeah. You know, something that's been in existence in Europe for quite a while and is now becoming a lot more popular or prevalent here in North America, is this GPS technology, one of them is called Snow SAT and the other is called Leica, I think, or something like that. But essentially, the snow grooming vehicles are mounted with a GPS unit that tracks their exact location. And we actually, um, help out a lot of the ski areas to, um, and the two companies, they have, um, a surface, a 3D surface of the, of the ground of the ski trails, so they know where the ski trail is and when the groomer is driving, he can tell how far off the ground he is, whether it's 3ft or 4ft. And so they can they can map the depth of the snow. And if they see a place that has five feet of snow and a place that has one foot of snow, they can move from the five-foot pillow over to the one-foot pillow. And it will it really. And part of the reasons that it's becoming much more popular here in North America after being a big thing in Europe for so long is, you know, it's really reduced the amount of snow that needs to be made. I remember, you know, Deer Valley, um, would just make four feet of snow. And that was, that was that, you know, and and, you know, in a lot of cases they didn't need to. And that's what this, you know, GPS control the grooming machines is bringing is that, that, you know, real-time knowledge of, of how much snow there is and where it goes and those types of things.

[00:44:19] Tom Kelly: That's pretty remarkable. Man on ski lifts. I know there's a couple of major companies that make ski lifts. Their product lines are are similar. But what are some of the innovations that you see in ski lift technology that we as skiers are going to be able to take advantage of over the next few years?

[00:44:38] Chris Cushing: Yeah, I mean, the innovations in ski lifts recently has been more towards rider comfort. Um, adding air bubbles or covers over the chairs, uh, heated seats, you know, much more luxurious seats. Um, that's been a big thing lately. Of course, lifts are getting bigger. There's eight-person chairlifts and ten-passenger gondolas and and then some of these multi-cable gondola systems that have 30 or 40 passenger cabins, you know, staged like a regular gondola, and the capacities can be up to like 5000 people per hour. So there's definite improvements in the potential capacities. And you know, that can really help in terms of ski areas having the opportunity of maybe replacing a couple of lifts with one higher capacity lift and making it a more efficient operation.

[00:45:33] Tom Kelly: Yeah, the whole heated seat thing and the bubble. I never used to care so much about that, but once you've experienced it, it's pretty nice.

[00:45:44] Chris Cushing: It really we don't have a lot of cold days. I use those heated seats at on Express more than once. Oh, yeah.

[00:45:52] Tom Kelly: Do we have any eight packs coming in Utah?

[00:45:58] Chris Cushing: I don't believe so. That I'm aware of.

[00:46:01] Tom Kelly: Yeah, but you've been on them before.

[00:46:03] Chris Cushing: Well, um, Park City was trying to.

[00:46:09] Tom Kelly: We saw it. We saw it. But have you been on eight packs elsewhere?

[00:46:16] Chris Cushing: Yes, I have in Europe.

[00:46:18] Tom Kelly: You know, my first experience, my first experience was in, in Europe. It was in Leogang in Austria. And I had always thought, that's just way too many people. How is this going to work? It is so smooth and efficient.

[00:46:29] Chris Cushing: Yeah. No. It's staggering. I mean, you know, especially, uh, combined with the loading carpet that kind of gets you out where you need to be and places you where you need to be. And, um, they do work really well.

[00:46:41] Tom Kelly: Some of us old timers have got to change our paradigm on things like restraint bars. Loading. What do you what do you call the loading conveyors? Um, because I never liked those things. Now that I'm actually experiencing them? They really do make a difference. So, um, let's look at challenges. What are the challenges ahead that the industry needs to look at and how is the industry managing it? And I'll give you a couple. One just climate. And how is the industry responding to that over time?

[00:47:16] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Well climate change is clearly a big challenge. And um, and you know, in Europe it's really having already having effects on, on the resorts on some of the resorts over there. You know, here in the US, we're obviously seeing the effects of the climate change. And, you know, you know, one of the things we're looking at is, is creating an opportunity to ski the upper elevations and, um, and, uh, you know, keep that good snow a little bit longer. The higher elevation, obviously, snowmaking is, is a big part of part of the picture. And, you know, in the extreme is these systems that make snow above freezing, which is essentially making ice and shaving it and blowing it out into the snow. And, you know, extremely energy consumptive, um, and, uh, you know. I don't, you know, who knows where it's going to go. I mean, the thing is, though, mountain resorts will always be around. And, you know, if the lower portions of mountains can't support skiing, there will be ways of, of, uh, serving the upper mountain. And there will be other uses for the lower mountain. They're not going to go away. And, um, we just have to be, you know, adaptive and, and respond to things as it comes as we have been, you know, already we're, we're doing things of, of, uh, addressing that and, and just continue doing so.

[00:48:51] Tom Kelly: The other area I'd like to hear your thoughts on is crowd management. More people love skiing, more people are going skiing. And I would imagine that your clients are coming to you and looking for solutions, which you're probably finding in different traffic mechanisms, lifts and so forth. But where do you see that going in the near term?

[00:49:11] Chris Cushing: You know, the big challenge there. And it's funny when you said, you know, some of the challenges moving forward, the two that came to my mind are the two that you mentioned. So it's clearly it's as Bob Wheaton used to say, great minds think alike. Too bad one of them's not mine.

[00:49:27] Tom Kelly: Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:29] Chris Cushing: But in terms of crowd management, you know, really the the we're seeing the most and most impactful is in the base areas, clearly. And, um, the solution is basically spreading people out and bringing them from their car to the resort from more than one location. And, um, you know, some resorts don't have that luxury. You know, Steamboat basically has one base area, so all the people have to go through that one base area. You know, some resorts have, you know, Park City has been able to disperse their users from getting to the resort with the inclusion of the Canyons Village. And the Sunrise Gondola is obviously going to help that out. You know, the, the there's there's talk of, other gondolas within Park City, that would encourage people to use some of the existing overflow parking lots and be able to ride a gondola to the ski areas rather than, a bus or shuttle. And that's what, you know, throughout the country. Those are the things that, again, it's most felt in the base areas because you think about it, lifts carry so many people up the mountain per hour. So you're not going to put more people on the hill if more people show up at the resort? You're not going to put them up on the hill because the lifts are already, you know, you can't deliver more people to the list can deliver. So where are they going to go? The base area, lift lines. And so, yeah. And, you know, the morning rush is, is challenging. And so again, it's just a matter of, of spreading those people out, um, you know, providing convenient conveyance from, you know, more remote areas so that people are comfortable, doing that. And, um, you know, Americans don't like riding on buses and shuttles. But they like riding in gondolas. And so, you know, any way that we can, uh, you know, incorporate that type of transport and, and, you know, uh, make those more remote parking areas more acceptable, I think it's going to help address the situation.

[00:51:54] Tom Kelly: In my years in going to Europe with the US Ski Team, I had the opportunity to see how mountain transportation tools that we're talking about are really community transportation tools as well. That mentality has not really come over to America, but I'm now starting to see it a little bit here, particularly in Utah, with communities talking about how we can use gondolas and other conveyances to get from parking to the resort. Is your company seeing more of this?

[00:52:23] Chris Cushing: Absolutely. Yeah. We, yeah. There's again, I mean, it's kind of the greater industry is recognizing that we're getting to a tipping point with crowding base areas, and there's got to be solutions. I mean, you know, at Breckenridge, they've installed a couple of gondolas from the parking lots in their remote parking lots. And so it's just a reality. And, we'll be seeing more of it for sure moving forward.

[00:52:53] Tom Kelly: Cool. Final question before we get to our little Fresh Tracks section and have a little fun. You've spent 40 years in this industry. It's been your life. It's been your passion. When you look back on it, what has it meant to you? What do you feel inside about the role that you've played in helping all of us have fun on the mountain?

[00:53:10] Chris Cushing: Yeah. Well, it's that's like the ultimate reward other than these honors, which are obviously a big reward for my career. But, you know, getting out on the hill and, you know, last year up at East Village watching people enjoying the terrain and, you know, I, one of my first runs over there, I was skiing down there was a guy with his two kids skiing down in front of me, and we got to the bottom of the lift and the kids were just like, oh, God, that was so much fun. I can't wait to do that again. That gave me goosebumps. It was, you know, that's really great. Um, the other thing that's been so rewarding and so fulfilling of this career is just the people that we work with. I mean, you know, with a few exceptions, people in the ski industry are just really great people. You know, they're interested and they, you know, they want to interact and they like to collaborate, and they're just fun people. You know, you have a day on the hill and you go and have a beer with them. And, um, it's just a really great group of people. And I just feel so lucky to have been introduced to this, you know, at a young age and, and to have actually been able to, you know, see it through. And I if you told me back then that I'd spend four years of my life doing this, I mean, it can't be that long.

[00:54:29] Tom Kelly: But it's been a good 40.

[00:54:30] Chris Cushing: Oh, yeah. It's been a lot of fun.

[00:54:31] Tom Kelly: Well, Chris, thanks for sharing all these stories. We're going to wrap it up with our Fresh Tracks section. And I was wondering, you know, when you're out there skiing somewhere, maybe it's a resort you develop. Maybe not. But are you ever out there on a run, and you're skiing the run? And you say to yourself, I would have done this differently.

[00:54:49] Chris Cushing: Yeah, yeah. You know, that's kind of the downside of this level or this type of work is, you know, where you used to go to ski resorts and just enjoy them. Now I'm very critical, particularly of resorts that I've worked on. And, even, you know, just, you know, looking at things from an analytical perspective instead of just having fun. That's not 100% true, but, yeah. No, there's some there's been some things that, and, you know, it's hard because when we do our design work, um, you know, it's not like we're designing a highway where there's engineering drawings, and the bulldozers and excavators have an engineering drawing to follow to make the highway. These are trails that we want to have character and have some fun. And sometimes that translation between, you know, what's what we're thinking about, it should be like and what the equipment operators not, you know, not to their, um, it's not their problem, but they don't quite carry it forward. I will say the group that's doing the work up at East Village are excellent, and they really have a good handle on how to make those, you know, these transitions and so forth. But yeah, there's there's some areas that like, damn, I wish we'd done that a little.

[00:56:09] Tom Kelly: Better a little bit. So Chris, when you're out with your family skiing in Utah, what's your favorite run to be out there on the mountain here in Utah with the family.

[00:56:19] Chris Cushing: Favorite run in Utah? Well, if you ask my wife that, she would say Magnet off of Lady Morgan in Deer Valley.

[00:56:27] Tom Kelly: Oh, this is good though.

[00:56:29] Chris Cushing: And I don't disagree. My favorite run. Wow. Tough call. There's some really great runs over at Snowbasin. I don't know their names.

[00:56:46] Tom Kelly: I know. Isn't this the truth that those of us that work in the industry, we don't learn the names?

[00:56:53] Chris Cushing: It's funny, you know, I mean, Stein's Way. Stein's is a clear favorite. It's so much fun. And, again, I'm an eastern skier, so I really enjoy the runs at Deer Valley. And, you know, for obvious other reasons, dad, um, but, yeah, I really enjoyed your valley. You know, Snowbird and Alta are have some amazing terrain. You know, the, Regulator Johnson is a hoot. Sorry, I can't, I can't.

[00:57:20] Tom Kelly: That's okay. Lots of options. Lots of options. How about a favorite spot to stop on the mountain for a coffee or a tea, or just a little break from skiing?

[00:57:29] Chris Cushing: Well, I mean, you know, Cushing's Cabin is near and dear to my heart, so we always stop there. You know, skiing with the ladies, having a restroom. So convenient is very handy. And, and having the hot chocolate or coffee or a beer, um, it's pretty, pretty intimate atmosphere in there, and we love going in and sitting by the fire and, um, having some fun.

[00:57:51] Tom Kelly: Cool. Two more. First one, if you look back on your career, what's one of the biggest on-mountain challenges that you've faced? We talked about Azerbaijan. Do you have another one?

[00:58:01] Chris Cushing: I think here in North America, one of the real challenges we had was over at Steamboat. We were doing the area that's called Pony Express, which is an expansion they did 15 years ago or so. And it's this beautiful bowl, uh, you know, really nice glade areas. But at the bottom where the bowl kind of empties out was a big wetland and a bunch of rocks and boulders and things, and all the skiers had to funnel through that one area. And, um, you know, it was a real challenge, but the terrain was just so great. And we're like, okay, well, we can't not do this lift because of this crux area. So we, you know, that was it was it was challenging. And to this day, it's that's one of those places where I skied. And I was like, geez, I wish I could have done a little bit better. But, you know, you have to be respectful of the resources and, and so forth. And, um, so that was a challenge. We got through it. But it was it was a challenge.

[00:59:01] Tom Kelly: Last one. Sum up what skiing means to you in just one word.

[00:59:09] Chris Cushing: Exhilaration.

[00:59:10] Tom Kelly: Exhilaration. I love that one. Chris Cushing, thank you so much for joining us here on last year and sharing your knowledge. And we look forward to being with you in April at Snowbird. When you're inducted into the US Ski and Snowboard Hall of Fame. And we're going to do a little toast here. And High West has today our we're toasting with a Rendezvous Rye that's a flagship whiskey from High West. It's a blend of mature rye whiskeys crafted to perfection. Here's to you. Cheers. Thanks to everyone for listening and watching. We'll see you again on Last Chair.