Tom Kelly: It's mid-November and this is really a great time to be up Little Cottonwood Canyon. It's before the season. Things are a little bit quiet, but that's all going to change pretty soon with us today. Steven Clark and Stephen, thank you for joining us. We're going to talk about avalanche mitigation. Welcome to the podcast.

Steven Clark: Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Tom Kelly: Yeah it is really nice up here. But it's going to change. We're recording this on the on the 15th of November. So watch for things to change over the coming weeks. Steven, we're going to launch into more on Little Cottonwood Canyon, the avalanche mitigation that the Utah Department of Transportation does. But I think to kick it off, one of the cool things about you is you grew up here right at the mouth of the canyon. So you're kind of in your home territory right now, right?

Steven Clark: Yeah. That's right. I grew up in Holladay. I grew up skiing in the Cottonwoods. And yeah, I'm lucky enough to get to also now make this part of my job being up here.

Tom Kelly: When you were a little kid growing up in Holladay. Do you have some memories of that first time you kind of figured out, man, this is really a special place for a skier.

Steven Clark: Yeah, I mean, I luckily I had like great parents that certainly, like, got us out into the mountains a lot as kids. And I have two brothers and they're also, uh, that was a big part of our childhood growing up. And, yeah, when you grow up here, and it's always, you know when the skiing is always good, and there's always really great powder snow around. Um, probably a little bit complacent and didn't really realize how good we had it, um, especially back then. But, um, yeah, even with how things have changed here in Utah and the cottonwoods, it's still a great place to get to call home.

Tom Kelly: How old were you when your parents were able to turn you and your brother loose into the backcountry?

Steven Clark: Oh, probably not as young as other people. You know, I would, you know, probably like five, six, seven. I don't I don't exactly remember the time frame, but I remember like, certainly like skiing around in the backyard as a, as a little kid and then, uh, you know, learning how to learning up, going up to the rope tow at Alta, uh, and skiing on that hill by the Alta Lodge there. And, um, yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

Tom Kelly: It's cool times to think back on that. Somewhere along the line, you got into avalanche safety. What was it that kind of got you thinking about getting into safety work and trying to protect us from avalanches?

Steven Clark: Um, yeah. I mean, I think I started backcountry skiing, from a young age, like we were back when the Utah Avalanche Center would, um, they would put out their forecasts. You'd have to call in on a phone line, and they would have a daily recording that you'd have to listen to. I remember my parents, you know, making us listen to that before they would, like, take us to the ski bus and go up the hill. Probably got into, like, really thinking about avalanche safety and or avalanches in general. When I started backcountry skiing, probably as a teenager, I thought that that stuff was super interesting. And kind of as I progressed in backcountry skiing more and probably started skiing at the ski area less, that became also like, I guess I became aware at that time, like, oh, there are these jobs out there that you can be an avalanche forecaster and you can think about snow and avalanches for a job. And I mean, admittedly, I probably thought that that would sound great, but it's probably something that I would never actually be able to achieve. It certainly felt that way at the time. Then, you know, right place, right time. I started working at UDOT, met some of the avalanche forecasting team, and that's kind of the rest is history. This was in ... so I've been working at UDOT for this will be my 13th winter. So, I think I started in 20 the winter of 2012, 2013. That was my first winter on the avalanche crew.

Tom Kelly: I do love the fact that your parents made you listen to the avalanche forecast before you went out.

Steven Clark: Yeah. I can't remember. Yeah, it was like. It was like a sticker on the back of our landline. Yeah, that's really dating me. You'd have to call the number, and you'd listen to Evelyn Lees or Bruce Tremper. you know, talk about what was going on that day.

Tom Kelly: Yeah, that is amazing. Now it's a lot easier. We just do it on our phones. But I want to learn more about UDOT. But first you're also teaching at the U. At the University of Utah, right? Tell us about that.

Steven Clark: Yeah. I teach a class at the U. In the spring semesters called Snow and Avalanche Dynamics. It's in the atmospheric science department, and I've been helping teach that class ever since I was in my undergrad at the U. It's an awesome class. It's two days a week. One day a week is on campus, two hours in the classroom, and then there's A four, four, or five-hour field session every week. So it used to be Wednesday Fridays, and we're going to switch that up. But yeah, there was always this big Friday field session. So every Friday you're kind of and you're really taking what's unique about that course I would say is you've got a lot of time, traditional avalanche courses are typically like condensed into a few days, whereas you have the whole semester. So you really get to see the winter snowpack transition from cold, cold snowpack all the way through the spring melt. And when it becomes isothermal, you can see all the different metamorphism regimes that the snowpack goes through. You really get an in-depth look at how the snowpack changes over time. Um, and, you know, the other unique part about it is that you get a mix of students. Some students are avid backcountry skiers, who have taken other avalanche courses. But you also get atmospheric science students who have basically never been in the snow at all. And those, uh, you know, those groups of people are forced to really work together and get to know each other. And it really kind of fosters a really cool, like, collaborative learning environment where a lot of times the students are teaching each other just as much as I'm teaching them about what's going on. Um, and yeah, it's something I've been working on that working with that class for a long time. I've been the instructor for, oh, I don't know, 6 or 7 years now. But yeah, it's called atmospheric snow and Avalanche Dynamics 5260 at the University of Utah.

Tom Kelly: This is sounding really interesting, and I know that there's a lot of people here on the who are really interested in that stuff.

Steven Clark: I mean, it's certainly, you know, I would say most of the students who take that course are not from Utah. They're all they're from all over all parts of the country. I think that's a lot of those people are probably came to the University of Utah with an interest of skiing in mind. That's also what makes it a nice learning environment. People are coming from different backgrounds and different, you know, places in the country or the world and where they've grown up and they bring all those experiences. And, you know, I would say I've seen more lifelong friendships created in that class than probably any other, uh, situation in my life, for sure. That's great.

Tom Kelly: You. We've had Jim Steenburgh on the podcast a number of times. I imagine you work kind of alongside him as well.

Steven Clark: Yeah. So he's a professor in the atmospheric science department. He and some of his grad students have certainly helped me out with that class in the past. Uh, we collaborate a lot with Jim Steenburgh and McKenzie Skiles and the University of Utah, mostly up at the Atwater Study Plot. Um, you know, for a long time that was kind of a UDOT study plot that not all, admittedly, not a whole lot was happening there. And, you know, really having my connections with the U. You and really just saying offering a place for them to plug into hard power and access that site to make a lot of like turns out now fairly impactful, research in snow and avalanches. So that's kind of my connection with that, i would say.

Tom Kelly: For our listeners, I encourage you to go back into the archives, look for some of our podcasts with Professor Jim Steenburgh and also one we did two years ago with Mackenzie Skiles at that Atwater Study Plot, where we did that podcast down in like a 12 foot hole in the snow, which was really quite fascinating. Let's talk a little bit about UDOT. We're going to focus today on Little Cottonwood Canyon. But your roles and responsibilities are really pretty broad. You you really are responsible for keeping our highways in the state safe from avalanches.

Steven Clark: Yeah. The avalanche program is a statewide program. you know, we have we have three kind of main forecasting areas, Little Cottonwood being, you know, where the lion's share of that activity happens. We've got a forecasting operation in Big Cottonwood and in Provo and American Fork as well. And then we have sort of the greater statewide avalanche program. And you know, that really means any state and federal highway in Utah that has a risk or typical or avalanche hazards associated with that roadway. We are in charge of forecasting and mitigating those avalanche hazards. So we try and work with the rural maintenance sheds, teaching, you know, really getting them kind of up to speed with avalanche rescue, um, getting them to report avalanches in a timely manner to help with some of that forecasting efforts. And then, so that's but that is, you know, a lot of those roads, you may go ten years, and there's no avalanche hazard, and then you have a big winter, or you'll have something change. What we've been seeing a lot in other parts of the state is when you have a wildfire move through a given area that typically was heavily forested, um, you remove all those, uh, vegetation and snow anchors, and now you have a real avalanche problem. We certainly saw that on a road called Huntington Canyon in central Utah. That's been increasingly difficult to deal with in the past, um, the past seasons. But primarily, you know, the most of our work and the most kind of time and effort that we're spending in the program is in Little Cottonwood.

Tom Kelly: Well, let's talk about Little Cottonwood. I think as skiers, we're accustomed to getting in our cars and driving up the eight miles or so, or getting on the ski bus and coming up to Alta or Snowbird. And I think most of us are probably a little bit oblivious to the fact that we're traveling one of the most challenging avalanche highways in the world. Tell us a little bit about this stretch of highway through Little Cottonwood Canyon.

Steven Clark: Yeah. So, highway 210, you know, starts in the Salt Lake Valley, travels up and terminates at the in the town of Alta. Um, you know, on its on its course up the, uh, the original road is the the grade of the road follows a historic rail line, which is why it keeps a very consistent grade throughout the canyon. Um, along that path, it, you know, you travel more than you travel through more than 50 named avalanche paths. Um, and so you combine that with, uh, uh, copious amounts of snowfall and a lot of weather, and that creates very frequent avalanches. Um, you know, the other part of that is a lot of traffic. So typically a busy winter day can have well over 5000 vehicles in the canyon, can be up over 7000 on some of the peak travel days in the winter. And that kind of combines in the transportation avalanche world. We use a metric called the avalanche hazard index, which is an equation basically that combines vehicle speeds, amount of traffic, frequency of avalanches, how spaced the avalanches are between each other, and you get a number. And so Little Cottonwood Canyon has the highest avalanche hazard index of any road in North America. So, you know, a lot of places around the world, they just wouldn't operate this road in the winter time. Um, but we do. Yeah.

Tom Kelly: And and therefore, you have a job to keep this highway free. What, um, you talked about over 50 named avalanche paths. How do you calculate these and how do you kind of index them over time?

Steven Clark: So we were lucky in Little Cottonwood. We've been, keeping track of, avalanche events for a really, really long time. So starting, you know, we've got old historical, uh, kind of anecdotal information from the mining area and then really kind of starting in the 40s and 50s is when we started taking the avalanche problem in Little Cottonwood more seriously and really trying to navigate it and deal with it. So we've been keeping pretty good records, uh, throughout that time, you know, trying to measure how far The avalanches are running, uh, how frequently they're running, you know, and when when Snowbird got started, I would say the, the, the better record keeping in those early kind of 40s, 50s era was probably up around the town of Alta. That's just where most of the people and the activity was happening. Um, but once Snowbird Ski Area got built in the 1970s, that's when we really started getting a better idea of and tracking what was going on in the lower parts of the canyon. So some of those early Snowbird snow safety, personnel were really instrumental with, kind of figuring out how to forecast and mitigate the the lower canyon avalanche paths, which was a which is a huge area that they hadn't really, um, paid a whole lot of attention to. I mean, obviously they paid attention because they had to travel underneath those paths and they had to deal with the avalanche debris on the roadway. But, um, as far as forecasting and mitigation for those lower paths, probably a it really got started probably in that 1970s time frame.

Tom Kelly: Have you have you done much studying or research on kind of the history of it? I mean, who were some of the key individuals who helped to really map out and, you know, investigate the cause of avalanches in those early days?

Steven Clark: Yeah, I mean, the the earliest people, you know, the classic Monty Atwater, Ed LaChapelle type people. They were, you know, they were probably the first people to really try and, like, figure out how to forecast and mitigate and come up with a little bit more of a scientific pattern to how and when avalanches are likely to occur, and then figuring out the tools to do that mitigation work, you know, kind of like as you progress into those 60s 70s time frame, especially with the advent of Snowbird ski area, you know, you had people like Baldy, you had people like Liam Fitzgerald, probably a bunch of other really influential people that I should know their names, but they put in a lot of that early work with, you know, they were trying to get a whole ski area started here at Snowbird, but then they were also having to kind of try and pay attention to what was happening on the road as well. Because historically, UDOT really, the, the mitigation, uh, responsibilities were put on the Forest Service for the highway. So that was how that kind of transition, and I can't remember the exact dates of when the Forest Service kind of said, you know, this is kind of your problem now. And that was, um, kind of the beginning of that UDOT avalanche program. I don't exactly remember the dates of that, though.

Tom Kelly: If we go back into the 40s and the 50s long before your time, uh, in a bit, we're going to talk about modern technology and how it can help to keep our highways and the people coming up those highways safe. But when you go back into those earlier days, the 40s, the 50s and into the 60s, what were some of the methodologies that were used to keep the highway safe?

Steven Clark: So, I mean, what was really used is they weren't doing anything. So they were kind of just keeping the road closed for extended periods of time and letting that avalanche hazard kind of rise and fall and then going through and cleaning up the debris after the fact. Um, once they started getting a little bit more aggressive with their mitigation, they were using, you know, they were using hand placed explosives, but that really required a lot of time to hike up and string together different explosive charges and set them off. So it was a very, fairly inefficient way of doing that mitigation work. You know, certainly ski cutting was a common practice in the early days of the ski area, but for the highway itself, um, probably really not much was happening until they started using military artillery. And that's kind of an interesting, fun story of when they when Monty Atwater first said that, hey, we want to, um, we want to try this. You know, they had they had experience using artillery in World War Two, and they found that effective to trigger avalanches. And they said, hey, Utah National Guard, you should bring your gun up here and we'll we'll try this out. And that worked for a few years. And they had good success. And then they ended up just leaving that artillery piece in the Forest Service garage. Um, and then I think it was just one snow storm that they, our National Guard couldn't make it up the canyon because there was blocked by avalanches. And I think they just took the keys and started firing the gun themselves. And I think eventually the US Army thought that that seemed okay. And that's kind of been the progression of that. Um, you know, it started with just that one portable French 75 pack howitzer, and then it's gone through various iterations of 105 and 75 recoilless rifles, uh 75 pack howitzers and the into to the the artillery system we're using today, which is 105mm howitzer.

Tom Kelly: And it's pretty effective, right?

Steven Clark: Yeah. I mean, the howitzer is an incredible tool. I mean, there really is in the avalanche mitigation world, there is not a piece of equipment from one location that you can do mitigation in such a large area. Um, it's incredibly effective.

Tom Kelly: Steven, we're going to take a short show break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about where we go from howitzers and some of the new innovations that UDOT is putting in place here in Little Cottonwood Canyon. We'll be right back on Last Chair.

Tom Kelly: We're back on Last Chair right now with Steven Clark from the Utah Department of Transportation. We're talking about avalanche safety, safety in general right now. I should note we're recording today up at Snowbird. It is gorgeous up here. Looking forward to the opening coming up very soon. Before we get into some of the details, I think one of the things that this is about safety and it's about safety of the people up here in the canyon and also the people coming up into the canyon. It's something I know that you, as an avalanche safety worker, you take very seriously, very personally.

Steven Clark: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that's that's one of the the strategic goals of UDOT is zero fatalities. And we you know, that is that is our goal is to, you know, reduce the risk of avalanches and not Uh, get anybody hurt, injured or killed in the process. Um, you know, a big part of that is it's the public safety. It's the residents, but it's also the workers safety. So, you know, we as an avalanche crew and the maintenance crews are really asked. We're asked to be up in the canyon during the the most hazardous avalanche, avalanche conditions, when visibility is poor, when it's snowing really hard, when we're, we're actively having natural avalanches. Um, and I think it's important to recognize that that is a big undertaking for UDOT. We're really asking these crews to really put themselves in harm's way, harm's way. A lot of times to, to maintain the operation of these canyons in the winter time. You know, we've we unfortunately, we have had some close calls, uh, in the past. We've had, you know, we've had maintenance workers get killed from avalanches in Little Cottonwood. We've had avalanche forecasters, unfortunately, pass away in avalanches. And we've also had some other close calls with maintenance crews being buried in avalanches or are having very near misses with large avalanche events. So it's something that we take incredibly seriously and we try our best to avoid. But unfortunately, sometimes the mountains kind of have the final say with what goes on up here. Yeah, you.

Tom Kelly: Can't compete with Mother Nature. Just try to control it. We did a podcast a couple of years ago with the Utah Department of Transportation plow team going up into the canyons, and they face a different type of hazards that than what you do. But you and your teams, you need to work up in the mountains. I know that howitzers have been played a big part in avalanche mitigation now for many decades, and probably will continue to, but you're also looking at new innovations up in the mountains to really add another layer of safety and efficiency to your operation.

Steven Clark: Yeah. That's right. So, you know, historically our, our sort of bread and butter tool has been military artillery and Little Cottonwood. Um, that said, when you have, when you're kind of little cottonwood can be a very congested place. So you've got a lot of homes, you've got a lot of businesses, you've got a lot of vehicles and people. But we also have very close proximity to these large avalanche areas. So in Little Cottonwood, you know, it's nothing it's no, not a hidden fact that we in UDOT we, we act when we're doing avalanche mitigation work. We have been shooting our live artillery rounds over these buildings and businesses with people inside of them. Um, you know, the US military knows that that's happening. We are the only program in the, in the of artillery users in North America. We're the only program that has been doing that. And the Army, you know, they understood that that was happening. But they also were somewhat uncomfortable with that practice. So starting in 2007, we we sort of began systematically working to eliminate those targets and sort of eliminate areas where we're shooting over buildings with people inside of them. And so to do that, we've been implementing, different types of remote avalanche control systems. That's often called rack systems. So that's been this kind of slow progression since that 2007 time frame. And we've done seven separate rack installations in that time. And with this final one being this Mount Superior project that we will probably talk about.

Tom Kelly: Yeah. When you when we're talking about these projects right now, we're up at Snowbird today, and we were looking out at Mount Superior at some of the installations. Difficult to see. But they are up there and you were able to point some of them out. How far down the canyon do you have them going now?

Steven Clark: So just above the Snowbird village in an area called Ten Springs. That's the farthest west in the canyon that we have that that equipment. But basically from Ten Springs and the south ridge of Mount Superior all the way through Upper Grizzly Gulch, are all controlled with remote avalanche control systems that we also have an array above the bypass road in the blackjack area as well.

Tom Kelly: Tell us a little bit more in detail about what these remote sites are like, how do they work, what are they called, and so forth.

Steven Clark: So there's generally two types of rack systems. There's a gas-based system and an explosive-based system. At UDOT we have both. We started with the gas-based systems. So how the gas based systems work, they typically use a mixture of oxygen and propane or sometimes it's, propane and oxygen and hydrogen. Excuse me. But basically you've got a small shelter that has large, uh, oxygen tanks and propane tanks, and then there's some other, kind of valve and dosing, what they called dosing tanks. And essentially so everything is housed in one location. And then there are gas lines that run along the ground to the individual gas exploders. And so when we want to fire those, we initiate a firing sequence. And it sends sends the gases to the exploders. And then there's a sparking mechanism, that over time it builds up enough gas volume and it ignites that. And so that's you're creating just an overpressure wave to disrupt those weak layers and trigger the avalanches. The explosive based systems work slightly different in they're, they're kind of self-contained. So it's actually something that is removed and it's called a deployment box that gets brought down to a staging area. Inside those deployment boxes, there's 12 explosive charges. and inside of there, you know, it's all sort of self-contained. There's the communication equipment, there's batteries, there's or solar panels. The different gearing mechanisms to operate that equipment. And then once those are placed up on the tower, how the shot is built. It's a hanging explosive. So as the charge falls out of the deployment box, a series of cords pull the igniters from the weight of the explosive charge, and that starts the the standard cap and fuse assembly to start burning. And then after around 45 or 50s, they explode a hanging above the snow pack and you get a really, really big radius of effect with those explosive charges.

Tom Kelly: Stephen, you've said that this is remote-activated, so where is this done and what methodology can you do this as an authorized authorized user on a phone app?

Steven Clark: Yeah, we can uh, most of the equipment have some kind of redundant communication. So it's either on a cell modem or a radio frequency. Um, but yeah, it's typically there's a firing sequence. There's a list of codes that we have to enter to start a firing sequence. But that can all be done on your cell phone.

Tom Kelly: And are you able on a on a clear ish day, are you able to see what's happening around those towers?

Steven Clark: Yeah we are. So we're able to we're able to observe, you know, when we have different, like, positive deployments or positive, uh, firing, firings of those, that equipment. We also listen for audible reports to to confirm that we have good detonation. And then we're able to observe whatever avalanche results we use. Other we have other equipment that we use. We have a networks of avalanche detection equipment throughout the canyon that are um, they're either it's called infrasonic. So they're listening for avalanches or we now have a, a radar system that is actually it's a different type of detection system that's kind of watching and can trigger this The alarm sequence when we when it detects snow movement.

Tom Kelly: So you're able to actually monitor some of those slide paths for activity.

Steven Clark: Yeah, absolutely. And so that's a very big part of why, um, why we have that detection system. And that's also a really big part of our kind of our for our mitigation process. We really want to be able to ensure that our mitigation is effective. So we're really confirming the results after every, detonation, whether that's artillery or rack systems. We really want to confirm that we either have good results or if we're maybe not expecting, we're not getting results that we were expecting. We may, uh, either fire more explosives or we may do something slightly different. So, yeah, having confirmation of the the results from your mitigation work is very important.

Tom Kelly: I know that little Cottonwood Canyon is truly unique with the number of avalanche paths that you have here as you were looking to bring this safety upgrade into your system. Did you look at other highways in other parts of the country, North America, the world, to see what's working in other places?

Steven Clark: Yeah, absolutely. We we spend a lot of time. So UDOT is part of something that's called the Transportation Avalanche Research pool. So basically that's a that's a way for, uh, state dots and forecasting highway transportation organizations to, to pool money to fund research. So we're very much, aware of other people's prior experiences, and really trying to improve on that. Most of the equipment that we use is, is developed in Europe. And so we're really and they, they're a bit farther along, as far as like the deployment and implementation of some of these, newer technology avalanche control systems. So we've certainly learned a lot from those organizations. You know, there's a big conference that's held every other year called the International Snow Science Workshop. It's called ISSW. It's held kind of on a rotating basis between North America, Canada and Europe. It was just held in Norway this year. So we certainly participate in those conferences either presenting or kind of, uh, creating a sharing of information environment. So, yeah. And I think, you know, people have benefited a lot from what we've also learned here in Little Cottonwood. We've been fairly, uh, willing to try systems out that before other people have, um, to, to some of our advantages and disadvantages. I think we've learned a lot of lessons.

Tom Kelly: So I would imagine that you work fairly closely with the Utah Avalanche Center as well, right?

Steven Clark: We do. You know, probably the biggest thing that we coordinate with them is a lot of our public messaging. So whenever we're doing avalanche mitigation work, uh, we have to close these backcountry areas. Um, so we have to make sure basically people aren't in those areas before we do mitigation work because we don't want to with the artillery, there's a fragmentation hazard of people getting hit by the fragmentation. But even with these rack systems, you know, we don't want to cause harm to any backcountry recreation users. So we all of our backcountry closure messaging is then broadcasted on the Utah Avalanche Center website. And then it has links to, um, all of our closure information with really, really good detail. So people who are going out in the backcountry are regularly checking the avalanche forecast before they're going. And there's. So we've enabled them to have a really good, easy way to see when there are backcountry closures in place.

Tom Kelly: Let's talk about your own communications channels. UDOT has developed an awesome system of a variety of tools to communicate these things to skiers and riders coming up the canyon. Can you talk a little bit about those? And by the way, we'll put some links into the show notes at Ski Utah.com. But tell us a little bit about the Cottonwood Canyons communications channels that skiers can avail themselves of.

Steven Clark: Yeah, we you know, we in the avalanche program, we started trying to get the public message out of our closures in sort of non-traditional state government channels. Uh, probably around when I started, you know, we had there used to be an old school website called Tele Tips.com. Uh, there was a, there's still a TGR forum that is kind of active if people want to go down that rabbit hole. Um, and then we had a UDOT website. So we were trying to we recognized the need to get the information out, uh, to a broader audience, especially as the, as backcountry recreation increased and then we made slow iterations. But really the biggest jump is when we kind of developed this UDOT Cottonwoods program as really a one stop, kind of like public information Canyon users platform. And so that is really where we've been able to reach the biggest audience. So we're not only reaching backcountry recreationists, but we're also alerting people who are going to the ski areas or traveling on these highways that they're not only going to be a backcountry closure, but there's going to be significant road road closure impacts as well. So really trying to tie those two together, and that's where we've seen our biggest improvements, I would say.

Tom Kelly: I want to look into the future. But before we do just to kind of recap where we're at now. So you have implemented a greatly expanded network of remote activated systems this this summer, getting ready for the winter. You're also continuing to use howitzer, is that right? Correct. And with this in place now, can you look into your crystal ball a little bit, and where do you see things going in another 5 to 10 years, to give you systems that provide even more public safety?

Steven Clark: You know, in Little Cottonwood, where we are, you know, geographically we are somewhat tapped out into where we can implement some of these remote avalanche control systems. So once you start going west of Mount Superior in Little Cottonwood, you run into the Salt Lake Twin Peaks Wilderness Area, I believe is what it's called. And really that that has a lot of constraints at what activities can be implemented within the wilderness area. So right now, um, we don't have any big plans for more rack installations. Um, you know. Maybe some small things here or there really trying to improve our detection systems. Um, you know, also kind of looking, looking in the future, uh, putting in some passive mitigation type equipment down in Provo Canyon is a possibility, especially as we're kind of looking towards the Olympics in ten years. You know, that roadway was a big player in the 2002 Olympics, and that's when we implemented a howitzer program in Provo Canyon. Um, but that also has wilderness area constraints as well. So trying to implement some passive mitigation infrastructure in very appropriate places. But that's about all I can say right now.

Tom Kelly: Steven, we've talked about a number of different elements, and you just mentioned passive and maybe give us a little bit more detail on on what that could mean.

Steven Clark: Yes. So when I, when I mean passive, it's, it's, it's types of systems that are actually trying to trigger the avalanche. It's kind of trying to deal with the avalanche as once they've already begun to run. And so really what we what I mean by that is implementing, uh, so there's a couple of different styles. There's a snowsheds. So basically building some kind of bridge structure over the roadway to allow the avalanches to run on their own and then not impact the traveling public. You know, that has been proven to be an incredibly effective tool in other parts of the world. And UDOT has looked at that very, very seriously. And we're considered, you know, that's been recommended to us as a a way to help lower that avalanche hazard index in the canyon, because it actually eliminates that avalanche from impacting the roadway. There are other types of passive mitigation structures, like breaking mounds or deflection berms to, again, just sort of slow down the once the avalanche has already started running to slow down the the movement of that debris and prevent it from impacting a roadway.

Tom Kelly: So you have lots of potential tools in your toolbox.

Steven Clark: Correct. Yeah. Again like kind of like going back to really trying to learn and implement these proven tactics that have been used in other parts of the world and bringing those to here in Utah.

Tom Kelly: Let's, uh, before we move on to our closing segment, let's give a little bit of love to Big Cottonwood Canyon. I know you have unique challenges here in Little Cottonwood, but can you characterize what the situation is like in big.

Steven Clark: Big Cottonwood has very similar traffic congestion, snowfall issues to Little Cottonwood. We have a mix of a bit of a bit of a different mix of avalanche problem in Big Cottonwood. We've got a lot of smaller avalanche paths and then a handful of very, very large, infrequent avalanche paths. Um, you know, those small avalanche paths, although they don't put huge, you know, massive debris piles on the roadway, they're frequent enough that we really do have to pay close attention to those and do somewhat frequent, uh, kind of hand charge and avalanche type mitigation, uh, in those areas as well. Um, it's just a slightly different challenge, but it's a very challenging place to work as well.

Tom Kelly: Well, we appreciate all that you and your team does for public safety to keep all of us coming up to have some great powder here at Alta and Snowbird, and also over in Big Cottonwood to helping to keep us safe. We're going to wrap it up with a section called Fresh Tracks. Just a few closing questions. Pretty simple, fun stuff. Going to kick it off with. What was your favorite run growing up? Right at the mouths of Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon in resort outside. Whatever.

Steven Clark: Oh my. Probably at a ski area. I probably, uh, rode the crest lift at Brighton and did the mile my Millicent Millie or Majestic Park lap probably more times than I care to admit. As a as a kid growing up. Um, favorite backcountry run? Uh, some of the bigger runs off of Kessler Peak. I've had some very great skiing in that area.

Tom Kelly: Do you get to the resorts much? I know you're probably working in the backcountry a lot, but do you get to the resorts much today?

Steven Clark: I try to. Not as much as I would like. How about a favorite run today? A favorite run today? Well, I haven't skied, you know, in a few months, but, uh, I'm looking forward to getting out there soon.

Tom Kelly: It won't be long. Favorite apres spot that we might find you at at the end of the day?

Steven Clark: Well, if I'm working, I typically try and wrap it up with coffee. So because I typically have to get a bunch of stuff done. So I typically go to three cups coffee in Holladay. That's a good favorite. Uh, apres spot in the canyon. Uh, the gold miners was always a favorite pre-pandemic. Um, or, you know, just hanging out in the parking lot with a group of friends.

Tom Kelly: Not nothing wrong with that. How about an avalanche safety story? Skiing highway. Anything that you want to share.

Steven Clark: I mean, I've had. Yeah. That's a that's a hard one. Uh, there's probably a lot of really good stories and a lot of, like, uh, not so good stories. So I'll stick with the. We want the good story. With the good story. Um. Yeah, I was thinking of. I was thinking about this when you were going to ask me this question. And I'm trying to think of, like, memorable skiing stories. I was I had a friend who was studying snowstorms in Chile. We were down. So it was in the summertime. We went, uh, on a ski trip down to Chile, and we were going to go, uh, is it a skier called Nevado de Chile? And it was off the back of this volcano. We were going to go ski to these hot springs, and we thought that would be a really great idea. And we skied off the back of this volcano. And, you know, we're in the middle of the Andes at this point. And we there's a there's a guy in a tent who had been out doing some mountaineering, and we had kind of skied down there. And then this helicopter lands right at these hot springs, and we were like, what is going on? And, uh, not kidding. This was a it was like a Corona beer commercial. They were going to have this like Corona beer commercial shoot in the middle of nowhere. And they literally had like the buckets with the Corona bottles and the limes. And we had like, you know, skied many, many miles and hours to get out to this point. And we had to just turn around because these guys took over the hot springs and had their Corona commercial. So that's my one. Funny.

Tom Kelly: Whoa, whoa. Did they offer you a Corona?

Steven Clark: No, they didn't even offer us a Corona. They gave they gave the guy in the tent. They gave him a corona, but they didn't give us one. Yeah. It was like, you know, guys and their shirts off and girls in bikinis. It was. It was full on.

Tom Kelly: This, this like, you know, we go out in our Jeep into the middle of Everlovin nowhere, and we're just back where four wheeling, just doing all this stuff. And all of a sudden you see somebody cruising along in a sedan. You know, it's crazy what you find in the backcountry. Um, last one, what is Little Cottonwood Canyon mean to you? But in just one word, these are, like, the hardest questions.

Steven Clark: Powerful. It's a powerful place.

Tom Kelly: It certainly is. Steven Clark, first of all, thank you for what you and your teams do to keep us safe. And we really appreciate you taking time to join us on Last Chair.

Steven Clark: Yeah. Thanks for having me.